# Christians: Why are scientists more likely to be non-believers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2013, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322 "2013-07-01T06:22:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/341 "2013-07-09T03:27:31Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > I think that guy is an atheist troll though based on other factors. Besides those other forums, maybe look up Duane Gish on youtube for young earth “scientific type” arguments. He’s really pretty skillful at what he does. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/342 "2013-07-09T08:01:04Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Among other things wiki says he was an astronomer. That’s a science of sorts. “Of sorts”? There’s nothing “of sorts” about it, astronomy absolutely was and is a science! ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/343 "2013-07-09T11:10:55Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > “Of sorts”? > > There’s nothing “of sorts” about it, astronomy absolutely was and is a science! True, but since Bruno has been adopted as the patron saint of the religiously persecuted, what he may have actually done is less important than the myth-cycle which has grown up around him. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/344 "2013-07-09T13:21:55Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > True, but since Bruno has been adopted as the patron saint of the religiously persecuted, what he may have actually done is less important than the myth-cycle which has grown up around him. What myth-cycle? Are you saying he wasn’t religiously persecuted? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/345 "2013-07-09T15:19:28Z")
I wrote: \> I have no problem with you criticizing the Catholic church in the Middle Ages. I do \> have problems with you claiming that it’s vastly worse than many other screwed-up \> institutions at many other times. Kable wrote: \> Speaking of misquotes. Who made a general statement comparing Catholics to \> other screwed up middle age institutions? I think you think that I did. However I just \> noted that most witch trials at the time of Bruno that I read about were started by \> them. I don’t remember who I was replying to in my post above. In any case, I don’t think that the Middle Ages were particularly screwed-up. I don’t think that the Catholic church of the Middle Ages was particularly screwed-up. I think lots of institutions in lots of eras did bad things (and good things). I don’t have time to do the research to say what institution of what era was the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/346 "2013-07-09T17:42:33Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I don’t think that the Catholic church of the Middle Ages was particularly screwed-up. Events like the Crusades and burning “witches” at the stake, by the thousands, does not sound screwed up to you? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/347 "2013-07-09T21:01:00Z")
Again, I don’t think that it’s _particularly_ screwed-up. Think about all the countries that have engaged in stupid wars. Think about all the countries that have engaged in unjust persecutions of individuals. I don’t have the time to do the research to rate the bad deeds done by many individuals over all of history, but it’s a long list. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/348 "2013-07-10T02:15:48Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Again, I don’t think that it’s _particularly_ screwed-up. Burning people at the stake isn’t _particularly_ screwed up? I take it then that you are Christian and think God sorts them out or something. Or maybe you think burning at the stake is just a small taste of what’s in store for infidels in the afterlife? So what does make the grade for you? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/349 "2013-07-10T11:15:47Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Burning people at the stake isn’t _particularly_ screwed up? I take it then that you are Christian and think God sorts them out or something. Or maybe you think burning at the stake is just a small taste of what’s in store for infidels in the afterlife? > > So what does make the grade for you? And this is where the historical perspective comes in, the perspective you do not have. Throughout European history, a huge number of people have been put to death in various painful and public ways by the authorities at the time. What is it about Bruno that sticks with you so much? Is it because he was executed for something we no longer recognize as being a crime? Is it because you do not believe the Church should have had the power to order someone to be executed? Is it because being burned at the stake is a far more cruel punishment than modern Western cultures use today? I am certain that Guy Fawkes (a contemporary of Bruno, by the way) was happy knowing that his hanging, drawing and quartering was ordered by secular London authorities, and not by the Archbishop of Canterbury. Since we all know that a death sentence handed down by a religious authority is far worse than one from “justice” from a state. (Note: the prior statement was composed with satirical intent. When a group in power decides to eliminate a person they view as being a threat to their established power, it really does not matter to the victim what the powers’ rationale is.) You may notice that (most) members of Western civilization have learned from the past, and such abuses of power are no longer allowed. It has been a long time since a council of bishops has ordered someone executed for heresy. (Also, you are sadly mistaken if you believe that anyone arguing with you on this point is advocating a return to a theocratic order. I believe I speak for everyone here is categorically stating that it is a good thing that heresy is no longer a capital crime.) ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/350 "2013-07-10T14:18:17Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > And this is where the historical perspective comes in, the perspective you do not have. I don’t? > [@](#): > > Throughout European history, a huge number of people have been put to death in various painful and public ways by the authorities at the time. Really? > [@](#): > > What is it about Bruno that sticks with you so much? Oh, just little things like they burned him alive, he didn’t deserve it, the Catholic church did it. You’re saying it’s no big deal because they did that kind of thing all the time? > [@](#): > > I am certain that Guy Fawkes (a contemporary of Bruno, by the way) was happy knowing that his hanging, drawing and quartering was ordered by secular London authorities, and not by the Archbishop of Canterbury. You mean the Catholic Guy Fawkes who attempted to kill his Protestant king? > [@](#): > > You may notice that (most) members of Western civilization have learned from the past, and such abuses of power are no longer allowed. It has been a long time since a council of bishops has ordered someone executed for heresy. Did they stop because of revelation? Was it something they read in the Bible about unbelievers being allowed to live in peace? Or did the Church just lose the power to continue as they had? > [@](#): > > (Also, you are sadly mistaken if you believe that anyone arguing with you on this point is advocating a return to a theocratic order. I believe I speak for everyone here is categorically stating that it is a good thing that heresy is no longer a capital crime.) That’s good! I’m glad you don’t actually follow the Bible: > [@Deuteronomy 13](#): > > New International Version (NIV) > > If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/351 "2013-07-10T14:22:15Z")
I have the feeling that you are arguing against people who are not here, and trying to refute arguments which are not being made. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/352 "2013-07-10T14:38:01Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I have the feeling that you are arguing against people who are not here, and trying to refute arguments which are not being made. I feel as if I am arguing with a guy who is rationalizing Catholics burning a scientist alive, because he was a heretic and “them were the times.” ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/353 "2013-07-10T14:52:37Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I feel as if I am arguing with a guy who is rationalizing Catholics burning a scientist alive, because he was a heretic and “them were the times.” As I had asked, is it because it was the Church ordering the execution instead of a secular authority (most of which were just as arbitrary as the Church at that time), is it because burning at the stake is a horrendous means of execution (used by the Church and by secular authorities for what we would today call civil disobedience), or is it because “heresy” is not considered to even be a crime today? I do not believe many examples of “justice” from around 1600 would be acceptable today. Or should I don sackcloth and ashes, and flagellate myself in public to atone for crimes committed 400 years ago by an authority I am not associated with? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/354 "2013-07-10T15:01:19Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > As I had asked, is it because it was the Church ordering the execution instead of a secular authority (most of which were just as arbitrary as the Church at that time), is it because burning at the stake is a horrendous means of execution (used by the Church and by secular authorities for what we would today call civil disobedience), or is it because “heresy” is not considered to even be a crime today? I thought I was pretty clear that it was most all those things. You just can’t bring yourself to condemn it can you? > [@](#): > > Or should I don sackcloth and ashes, and flagellate myself in public to atone for crimes committed 400 years ago by an authority I am not associated with? You’re not a Christian or Catholic? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/355 "2013-07-10T15:07:50Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I thought I was pretty clear that it was most all those things. You just can’t bring yourself to condemn it can you? > You’re not a Christian or Catholic? What possible point would there be for me to condemn an action which took place 400 years ago? I believe (although I am too lazy to look it up) that my blanket characterization of 16th-17th century European authorities as “barbaric” is sufficient. I am a very bad Christian, and have been told as much by members of most of the major denominations. My Wife and I have left several congregations over the years, and now seem to have landed in a comfortable UU church. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/356 "2013-07-10T16:07:56Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Or should I don sackcloth and ashes, and flagellate myself in public to atone for crimes committed 400 years ago by an authority I am not associated with? > [@](#): > > Blows and wounds scrub away evil, > and beatings purge the inmost being. [Proverbs 20:30](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=proverbs%2020:30&version=NIV) Go for it man. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/357 "2013-07-10T16:09:58Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > [Proverbs 20:30](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=proverbs%2020:30&version=NIV) > > Go for it man. Sure, but I will need Maddog 20:20 first ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/358 "2013-07-10T16:11:34Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > What possible point would there be for me to condemn an action which took place 400 years ago? Don’t if you don’t want to. I just find it an interesting perspective from a liberal “love thy neighbor” type of Christian. > [@](#): > > I am a very bad Christian, and have been told as much by members of most of the major denominations. I agree with that. If what Jesus says in the Bible is true, I have no doubt you’ll go to hell just like us atheists. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/359 "2013-07-10T16:29:06Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Don’t if you don’t want to. I just find it an interesting perspective from a liberal “love thy neighbor” type of Christian. Bruno woud dbe just as dead by now if he hadn’t been executed. I prefer to expend outrage on current problems. > [@](#): > > I agree with that. If what Jesus says in the Bible is true, I have no doubt you’ll go to hell just like us atheists. Oh, I am quite certain I will come out on the negative side at Judgment, whether the Judge is YHWH, Jesus, Midas, Anubis or whomever. I am selfish, prideful, and routinely put the wants of my family ahead of the needs of my neighbors. Plenty of reasons to damn me without ever getting to the “incorrect interpretation of Scripture” charges. But if I find that “specific details of worship” is indeed 80% of our final grade and that the only acceptable form is Fundamentalist Christianity, then I will do all I can to help Lucifer overthrow a God who has proven himself to be petty and capricious. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/360 "2013-07-10T16:37:15Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Bruno woud dbe just as dead by now if he hadn’t been executed. Great reasoning! Anne Frank would be dead too, so who cares how it happened.:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I prefer to expend outrage on current problems. How about the repeated raping of little boys or the discouragement of condoms in aids infested africa? > [@](#): > > But if I find that “specific details of worship” is indeed 80% of our final grade and that the only acceptable form is Fundamentalist Christianity, then I will do all I can to help Lucifer overthrow a God who has proven himself to be petty and capricious. What if only the New Testament teachings of Jesus, written in red, are true. Would you still join Lucifer to overthrow Jesus? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322.md?page=19)