# Christians: Why are scientists more likely to be non-believers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2013, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322 "2013-07-01T06:22:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/361 "2013-07-10T17:27:02Z")
Kable writes: \> Burning people at the stake isn’t _particularly_ screwed up? How much history have you studied? Every time period has events that to most people nowdays sound really screwed up. Every institution has done things that now sound really screwed up. Pretty much every person in history, even those that are usually thought of these days as being pretty good, did things that were a litttle screwed up by today’s standards. Today’s standards aren’t so great either. There are lots of people and institutions today that most of us would think are pretty screwed up. What you’re asking me to do is compare the Catholic church in the Middle Ages with every other institution throughout history and decide which is better and worse. I’m not going to do it. Meanwhile, you should read some history about something other than the Catholic church in the Middle Ages and find out how full of good and bad all of humanity is. ---
**Author:** ![Daniel6867](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3ab097/32.png) [@Daniel6867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daniel6867)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/362 "2013-07-10T22:30:33Z")
I’m wondering, if what I’ve heard on talk radio is true? That universities in general are very liberal and demeaning to Christian views. So if that were true I would reason that being taught in an atmosphere of negativity toward a Christian view they would naturally become atheist? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/363 "2013-07-11T00:15:24Z")
> [@Daniel6867](#): > > I’m wondering, if what I’ve heard on talk radio is true? The answer to this question is pretty much always “No”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/364 "2013-07-11T00:42:09Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Kable writes: > > \> Burning people at the stake isn’t _particularly_ screwed up? > > How much history have you studied? Every time period has events that to most people nowdays sound really screwed up. Every institution has done things that now sound really screwed up. Pretty much every person in history, even those that are usually thought of these days as being pretty good, did things that were a litttle screwed up by today’s standards. Today’s standards aren’t so great either. There are lots of people and institutions today that most of us would think are pretty screwed up. What you’re asking me to do is compare the Catholic church in the Middle Ages with every other institution throughout history and decide which is better and worse. I’m not going to do it. Meanwhile, you should read some history about something other than the Catholic church in the Middle Ages and find out how full of good and bad all of humanity is. Prevalent is not the antonym of screwed up. Being Jewish, I can say yes they were. But remember that the Catholic Church claimed, and still claims, moral authority far beyond that of your normal asshole king. People can be screwed up - if people claiming some connection to God are it indicates that either God is screwed up or the connection does not exist. We can expect secular ethics to improve with time. God-based ethics or morality should be pretty much right from the start. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/365 "2013-07-11T03:04:36Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > How much history have you studied? Some. > [@](#): > > Every time period has events that to most people nowdays sound really screwed up. OK, but you indicate that you didn’t think burning people alive qualified as really screwed up. Please give me an example of something that is? When I think about it I can’t think of anything that is much worse, except maybe the eternal burning with fire that Jesus talks promises. > [@](#): > > What you’re asking me to do is compare the Catholic church in the Middle Ages with every other institution throughout history and decide which is better and worse. No, I was just asking you what is in your opinion “particularly screwed up” with regards to morals, since you said that burning people alive didn’t made the grade. I just want you to give some examples. It’s a simple request. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/366 "2013-07-11T04:07:46Z")
Kable writes: \> . . . you indicate that you didn’t think burning people alive qualified as really screwed \> up . . . No, I said that burning people alive wasn’t “particularly” screwed up. I didn’t say that it wasn’t “really” screwed up. Yes, it _was_ a really screwed up thing to do. People and countries and institutions have done really screwed-up things throughout history. “Particularly” means for me that it’s at a level well beyond most other people/institutions/countries/etc. Voyager writes: \> But remember that the Catholic Church claimed, and still claims, moral authority far \> beyond that of your normal asshole king. Jerks throughout history have claimed moral authority. The amount of moral authority they have claimed has little to do with how much morality they have shown. I don’t feel any need to establish an overall scale of failing to come up to one’s claims of moral authority by measuromg their claims of moral authority, then measuring how terrible their actions were, then creating a joint scale which measures them by their claims of moral authority minus their immoral actions. Those are two different things not usefully measured on one scale. You want me to name equally bad things? Well, how many people were burned alive by the Catholic church? In comparison, how many people have been killed in wars where the country was proud of how many people they had killed? How many people have been deliberately killed in various sorts of concentration camps and other sorts of camps where the country knew that most people would starve? How many rulers have killed numerous citizens of their countries just because they felt like it? How many people have tortured other people and then killed them? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/367 "2013-07-11T05:12:31Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Kable writes: > No, I said that burning people alive wasn’t “particularly” screwed up. I didn’t say that it wasn’t “really” screwed up. Yes, it _was_ a really screwed up thing to do. People and countries and institutions have done really screwed-up things throughout history. I’m glad to hear you think burning people is really screwed up. Do you think it is really screwed up when the Bible says Jesus will send his angels to gather up those who offend him and cast them into a furnace of fire? Or is it OK when Jesus does it? > [@](#): > > “Particularly” means for me that it’s at a level well beyond most other people/institutions/countries/etc. You must live in a shitty neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/368 "2013-07-11T05:45:09Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Jerks throughout history have claimed moral authority. The amount of moral authority they have claimed has little to do with how much morality they have shown. I don’t feel any need to establish an overall scale of failing to come up to one’s claims of moral authority by measuromg their claims of moral authority, then measuring how terrible their actions were, then creating a joint scale which measures them by their claims of moral authority minus their immoral actions. Those are two different things not usefully measured on one scale. Their actions can be measured immaterial of what their claim to moral authority is. That doesn’t make their actions either worse or better. What it does do is destroy their claim of special authority. Governments do terrible things also, but in democracies the ability of the people to vote them out, and prosecute those who commit crimes, is crucial. The special evil of the child abuse scandal is not that priests abuse children - they are not alone in that - but that their superiors, feeling that they had special moral authority, felt that they did not have to interact with secular governments and police. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/369 "2013-07-11T15:00:22Z")
Voyager writes: \> What it does do is destroy their claim of special authority. Governments do terrible \> things also, but in democracies the ability of the people to vote them out, and \> prosecute those who commit crimes, is crucial. I never claimed that the Catholic church has or should have any sort of special authority. Other people might claim that they do, but that’s their problem, not mine. It’s always possible to vote out terrible governments? Are you kidding? Governments that have even claimed to be democracies, regardless of whether they were or weren’t, have been a minority over all history and all places. The ones that haven’t even claimed to be democracies can’t be voted out at all. Sometimes it’s possible to have a revolution and get rid of (usually by killing off a lot of) the rulers. Sometimes it’s not. Even the ones that claim to be democracies are sometimes hard to get rid of. Sometimes the government fixes the elections. Sometimes the elections are fair, but the ruling majority oppresses a minority. Kable writes: \> I’m glad to hear you think burning people is really screwed up. I thought it was pretty obvious in everything I’ve written that I think it’s bad. I think there have been bad people and institutions and countries throughout history. I’m not less cynical than you. I’m more cynical. There have been no utopian societies. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/370 "2013-07-11T15:15:37Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I thought it was pretty obvious in everything I’ve written that I think it’s bad. No I got the impression that you thought it was just the same as regular murder, or a modern day death penalty. That slow roasting a person over an open fire for freedom of expression wasn’t a worse way to kill another person than any other, for any other reason. I still haven’t heard you give an example of a “particularly” bad act, just to see where you are coming from on this. > [@](#): > > I think there have been bad people and institutions and countries throughout history. I’m not less cynical than you. I’m more cynical. There have been no utopian societies. That’s all well and good, but I think you would have to admit that some societies are better than others. Also you didn’t answer my question about Jesus. Do you think it is wrong for him and God to burn people with fire like Jesus talks about in the gospel? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/371 "2013-07-11T15:26:49Z")
I can also condemn Chronos for eating his children, if you like. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/372 "2013-07-11T16:14:07Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Voyager writes: > > \> What it does do is destroy their claim of special authority. Governments do terrible > \> things also, but in democracies the ability of the people to vote them out, and > \> prosecute those who commit crimes, is crucial. > > I never claimed that the Catholic church has or should have any sort of special authority. Other people might claim that they do, but that’s their problem, not mine. It’s always possible to vote out terrible governments? Are you kidding? Governments that have even claimed to be democracies, regardless of whether they were or weren’t, have been a minority over all history and all places. The ones that haven’t even claimed to be democracies can’t be voted out at all. Sometimes it’s possible to have a revolution and get rid of (usually by killing off a lot of) the rulers. Sometimes it’s not. Even the ones that claim to be democracies are sometimes hard to get rid of. Sometimes the government fixes the elections. Sometimes the elections are fair, but the ruling majority oppresses a minority. I didn’t include oppressive governments, but Communist governments, with a claim to special economic authority, were a lot like theocracies. Which is why the collapsed, not evolved. There are plenty of oppressive government which don’t claim moral authority - they are the ones where the authority is personal, and sometimes they even turn into democracies, as was the case in Spain. I don’t care what you think about Catholic moral authority - you do agree that the Catholic Church claims it, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/373 "2013-07-11T16:15:14Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I can also condemn Chronos for eating his children, if you like. I knew it. The infidels have started a war on Saturnalia. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/374 "2013-07-11T16:32:30Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I trust wiki better than any religious apologist “real cites.” Usually wiki cites a number or real cites rather than cherry picked ones. If you blindly trust whatever Wikipedia says, while proudly ignoring scholarly material by professional historians, that would explain why you have such a rock-solid belief in so many things that are flatly untrue. In the particular case of the claim that Giordano Bruno was an astronomer, Wikipedia offers no citation of any kind. This isn’t surprising, since Bruno was not an astronomer. One could say that some of his speculations about cosmology related to the pop religion of hermeticism might have bordered on astronomy, but by that standard L. Ron Hubbard was also an astronomer. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/375 "2013-07-11T18:28:26Z")
> [@Daniel6867](#): > > I’m wondering, if what I’ve heard on talk radio is true? That universities in general are very liberal and demeaning to Christian views. So if that were true I would reason that being taught in an atmosphere of negativity toward a Christian view they would naturally become atheist? In general I find that “demeaning towards Christian views” really means “doesn’t accept Christianity as a matter of course”. Christians go to university and find that unlike at home not everyone believes the same thing that they do, and some are willing to directly challenge their beliefs. For many this is quite a shock and is interpreted as hostility towards Christianity. Some people will realize that those challenging their beliefs actually have a point and drop their fundamentalist view-point. As a result their parents see the university as a heathen place where good Christians are brain-washed into atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/376 "2013-07-11T19:27:03Z")
> [@Daniel6867](#): > > I’m wondering, if what I’ve heard on talk radio is true? That universities in general are very liberal and demeaning to Christian views. So if that were true I would reason that being taught in an atmosphere of negativity toward a Christian view they would naturally become atheist? Forget about liberal - there are plenty of Christian liberals. What Christian views? Universities are all about questioning in pursuit of the truth, and especially questioning the opinions you bring to the university. A kid coming from an environment where faith is good and doubters get ostracized will be very uncomfortable at a great university. A kid who has hardly ever met some who believes in Judaism or Islam or no god at all will be in for a shock. If a kid goes to biology class, gets told that evolution is accepted as just about as close to a fact as you are going to get, and interprets this as negativity to Christians, that kid is in the wrong place. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/377 "2013-07-11T19:48:04Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > […]If a kid goes to biology class, gets told that evolution is accepted as just about as close to a fact as you are going to get, and interprets this as negativity to Christians, that kid is in the wrong place. I don’t know if it’s a good comoparison, but I read an article in my sister’s high-school biology textbook (I took chemistry, and I graduated two years before she did) about the hypothesis of spontaneous generation. The text gave detailed accounts of Francesco Redi’s experiments with rotten meat, and Louis Pasteur’s experiments with hay infusions. And the conclusion both Redi and Pasteur came to was that spontaneous generation was not possible, on the basis of the results. After noting these conclusions, the text commnented that life on earth had to start somehow. How? “We believe by spontaneous generation!” (The exclamation point was in the text.) If college tetxts, and professors, abide by that sort of doublethink, I can see how students would ‘get a shock’ from such academic ambience. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/378 "2013-07-11T20:17:21Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I don’t know if it’s a good comoparison, but I read an article in my sister’s high-school biology textbook (I took chemistry, and I graduated two years before she did) about the hypothesis of spontaneous generation. The text gave detailed accounts of Francesco Redi’s experiments with rotten meat, and Louis Pasteur’s experiments with hay infusions. And the conclusion both Redi and Pasteur came to was that spontaneous generation was not possible, on the basis of the results. > After noting these conclusions, the text commnented that life on earth had to start somehow. How? “We believe by spontaneous generation!” (The exclamation point was in the text.) > If college tetxts, and professors, abide by that sort of doublethink, I can see how students would ‘get a shock’ from such academic ambience. That’s poorly written, but in a sense it is kind of correct. There was non-life, and there was life, and unless you think some bearded guy did it, it is the definition of spontaneous generation. My wife ghost wrote a good chunk of a high school biology textbook, and she found it very frustrating. Given the strict word count limit and the long list of topics that had to be covered to meet the union of state standards, she had no room to make stuff interesting for kids. Maybe the writer stuck in that comment to shake the readers up. So I’m not at all outraged by the passage. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/379 "2013-07-11T23:28:28Z")
Here are several Straightdope articles about people doing terrible things: > **[Was Andrew Jackson one of the world’s most prolific mass murderers?](https://www.straightdope.com/21343553/was-andrew-jackson-one-of-the-world-s-most-prolific-mass-murderers)** > **[Was there genocide in early 20th century Armenia?](https://www.straightdope.com/21343720/was-there-genocide-in-early-20th-century-armenia)** > **[Did whites ever give Native Americans blankets infected with smallpox?](https://www.straightdope.com/21342238/did-whites-ever-give-native-americans-blankets-infected-with-smallpox)** Here is Rummel’s estimate of the number of people killed by various governments: [http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM](http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM) The number killed in witch trials, including burnings, is 40,000 to 60,000: > **[Witch-hunt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt)** > > A witch-hunt, or a witch purge, is a search for people who have been labeled witches or a search for evidence of witchcraft. The classical period of witch-hunts in Early Modern Europe and Colonial America took place in the Early Modern period or about 1450 to 1750, spanning the upheavals of the Reformation and the Thirty Years' War, resulting in an estimated 35,000 to 50,000 executions.\[a\] The last executions of people convicted as witches in Europe took place in the 18th century. In other reg Many governments and other institutions have claimed moral authority. They didn’t necessarily call it “morality.” They said that they were doing it for the people of the world. They said that they were doing it for the future of the human race. They said that they were doing it for the superior people. They said that they were doing for their self-protection, even when it was obvious that they were easily in control of the people that they killed. There are many ways to claim to justify the horrifying actions that governments and other institutions do, and generally the people already supporting those governments and institutions have just gone along with those justifications. I think it can be stated that most existing major countries have done things in the past that are as bad as burning witches. Are you claiming that shooting and killing several million people is not as bad as burning 50,000 of them? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/380 "2013-07-11T23:49:49Z")
Wendell - You can sit with me and rend your garment. I have ashes to spare. Our friends will not be satisfied until we agree that the human rights abuses by the Catholic Church in centuries past was so much worse than any other reason people have given for being bad to other people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322.md?page=20)