# Christians: Why are scientists more likely to be non-believers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2013, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322 "2013-07-01T06:22:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/381 "2013-07-12T06:45:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > That’s poorly written, but in a sense it is kind of correct. There was non-life, and there was life, and unless you think some bearded guy did it, it is the definition of spontaneous generation. > My wife ghost wrote a good chunk of a high school biology textbook, and she found it very frustrating. Given the strict word count limit and the long list of topics that had to be covered to meet the union of state standards, she had no room to make stuff interesting for kids. Maybe the writer stuck in that comment to shake the readers up. So I’m not at all outraged by the passage. Poorly written? That’s rather subjective, dependent upon the expertise of the literary critic. The quote is authentic, although I read it more than 40 years ago. I never said “some bearded guy.” I don’t get my notions from medieval Catholic art. I suggest you read the speech the Apostle Paul gave on the Areopagus, including the passage ‘we should not assume that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, something sculptured by the art and contrivance of man.’ (Acts 17:29) “It is the definition of spontaneous generation.” This may sound like a foolish question, but just what is the antecedent of “It” in that sentence? “Maybe the writer…”? That is conjecture. In fact the teachings in life science fly straight in the face of the conclusions reached by Redi and Pasteur. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/382 "2013-07-12T10:13:14Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > In fact the teachings in life science fly straight in the face of the conclusions reached by Redi and Pasteur. Of course, the fact that Redi and Pasteur were not looking for organic compounds that managed to organize themselves into self replicating machines kind of hints that we should not be surprised by this. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/383 "2013-07-12T11:12:18Z")
Redi and Pasteur showed that molds and bacteria do not appear in a few days in spoiling foodstuffs without an existing spore or seed. That is not the same question as to whether complex chemicals can, given years and steady energy input, bootstrap themselves to self-replicating reactions. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/384 "2013-07-12T12:35:48Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > How about the repeated raping of little boys or the discouragement of condoms in aids infested africa? These and other current issues should really be the focus of any criticism of the Roman Catholic Church. Forget burning people at the stake. Even if they were the worst villains in history, we have more than enough problems in the present caused by religious organizations and teachings. > [@Voyager](#): > > Being Jewish, I can say yes they were. Is that a qualification now? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/385 "2013-07-12T13:00:14Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If you blindly trust whatever Wikipedia says… Who said anything about blindly trusting anything? I’m not a Christian so I don’t think faith is a virtue. I do think however that wikipedia is a better single source than an other single source I can think of. It’s fast too. Bruno seems like a really cool guy and all, but life is short so I’m not reading an entire biography on him. Especially not if all the relevant points of view are already presented on wiki. > [@](#): > > while proudly ignoring scholarly material by professional historians, that would explain why you have such a rock-solid belief in so many things that are flatly untrue. Wikipedia quotes scholarly material on the reg. BTW, what do I believe that’s flatly untrue? > [@](#): > > In the particular case of the claim that Giordano Bruno was an astronomer, Wikipedia offers no citation of any kind. Please offer a quote from your source that says he wasn’t an astronomer, along with your sources citation. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/386 "2013-07-12T13:07:33Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > These and other current issues should really be the focus of any criticism of the Roman Catholic Church. Forget burning people at the stake. Even if they were the worst villains in history, we have more than enough problems in the present caused by religious organizations and teachings. Fully agree. The pedophiles and those who enabled their crimes should be held to the highest degree of personal responsibility. The Church was to accustomed to not being held responsible for things they believed to be internal matters, and they treated these crimes as if they were just sins for too long. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/387 "2013-07-12T13:13:38Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Are you claiming that shooting and killing several million people is not as bad as burning 50,000 of them? That depends on how you look at it. To the people being killed I’m sure most would prefer being shot that being burned to death. I was focusing on the type of death more than the numbers. If I wanted to talk numbers killed because of Catholics I would have talked more about the Crusades or the 30 years war. I imagine if you were given the choice you would find being burned to death is a “particularly” bad way to go. \*\*Again you have not answered my question about Jesus. Please do so. Do you think it is wrong for him and God to burn people with fire like Jesus talks about in the gospel?\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/388 "2013-07-12T13:15:57Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Wendell - You can sit with me and rend your garment. Why would you rend your garment? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/389 "2013-07-12T13:18:56Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > These and other current issues should really be the focus of any criticism of the Roman Catholic Church. Forget burning people at the stake. Even if they were the worst villains in history, we have more than enough problems in the present caused by religious organizations and teachings. That’s a good point, but I think it’s worth pointing out that religious travesties have been with their respective organizations from the start. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/390 "2013-07-12T13:21:53Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Why would you rend your garment? That is the traditional outward indication of being in Penance. It is a public display of how sorry you are for your sin, and we are taking upon ourselves the sins of the Roman Catholic Church fromn the year 1600. It may take a while to work our way up to the Twentieth Century at this rate. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/391 "2013-07-12T13:40:26Z")
Kable writes: \> Do you think it is wrong for him and God to burn people with fire like Jesus talks= \> about in the gospel? Why would this even bother you? Assuming that you’re an atheist, what you’re talking about is what people in a group you don’t belong to believe about what someone who doesn’t exist and a long-dead nutty prophet claim should happen to some people in an afterlife that you don’t believe in. What we were talking about was the relative badness of things that actual groups have actually done, which is a long enough list in itself. If you want to include every wrong thing that everyone has believed in too, that is going to be even longer. And, once again, I don’t claim that the Catholic church is a moral authority. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/392 "2013-07-12T13:46:37Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Why would this even bother you? Wendell, stop trying to answer a question with another question. I’m asking YOU if it bothers YOU. **Do YOU think it is wrong for Jesus and God to burn people with fire like Jesus talks about in the gospel?** ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/393 "2013-07-12T13:49:14Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > That is the traditional outward indication of being in Penance. OK, so you do take a few Bible verses literally. It must be hard for you to decide which ones. > [@](#): > > It may take a while to work our way up to the Twentieth Century at this rate. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/394 "2013-07-12T13:49:25Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Wendell, stop trying to answer a question with another question. I’m asking YOU if it bothers YOU. > > **Do YOU think it is wrong for Jesus and God to burn people with fire like Jesus talks about in the gospel?** Wouldn’t that be presuming that he believes “Jesus and God” are or have actually burned people with fire, as opposed to Yeshua bar Yusef using a metaphor during his sermons? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/395 "2013-07-12T13:50:32Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I can also condemn Chronos for eating his children, if you like. Brilliant! ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/396 "2013-07-12T14:00:30Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Wouldn’t that be presuming that he believes “Jesus and God” are or have actually burned people with fire, as opposed to Yeshua bar Yusef using a metaphor during his sermons? Not necessarily. I’d be happy to hear your answer as well. Speaking of metaphor, do you think Jesus is using metaphors all the time (like when he talks about good places to go?) or just when he is talking about bad things? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/397 "2013-07-12T14:23:17Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Not necessarily. I’d be happy to hear your answer as well. Speaking of metaphor, do you think Jesus is using metaphors all the time (like when he talks about good places to go?) or just when he is talking about bad things? Well, since you asked. As I have already said, I am a very bad Christian. I do not believe in a Hell or other place of eternal punishment. I am not certain of a Heaven or other place of eternal reward. I do live my life as if I were to be judged at the end of it, and therefore try my best to improve the general state of the world. Your mileage may vary as to the appropriate goals of this “improvement,” and as I am both naturally lazy and selfish my efficiency is quite low. My fuzzy and ill-founded spirituality is generally Christian in flavor because I was raised in a Christian environment. As I have also said, my Wife and I have recently landed in UU congregation since they seem to have the least issue with heterodox beliefs as long as we show respect for others. In short, the reported statements of Jesus regarding eternal punishment are a pretty clear indication of the times and attitudes of his editors, and are unlikely to accurately reflect the intentions of the Almighty, whatever or whomever that may be. I refuse to acknowledge a barbaric and capricious Supreme Being, although I recognize that barbaric and capricious people often excuse their behavior by invoking “God’s Will.” ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/398 "2013-07-12T14:32:42Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Well, since you asked. As I have already said, I am a very bad Christian. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior? > [@](#): > > I do not believe in a Hell or other place of eternal punishment. I am not certain of a Heaven or other place of eternal reward. Why are you more skeptical of one over another? > [@](#): > > In short, the reported statements of Jesus regarding eternal punishment are a pretty clear indication of the times and attitudes of his editors, and are unlikely to accurately reflect the intentions of the Almighty, whatever or whomever that may be. Are those factors any different with regards to eternal rewards? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/399 "2013-07-12T14:41:30Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior? Yes. I believe that is the minimum requirement to being a Christian, even an apostate like me. This statement is not intended to disparage anyone raised in a different tradition or culture from also enjoying the benefits of Divine favor. > [@](#): > > Why are you more skeptical of one over another? I am an optimist and believe that positive reinforcement produces better traingn results than negative reinforcement. Also, any deity who maintains a private torture chamber is evil, although one who simply destroys defective souls is acceptable to me. > [@](#): > > Are those factors any different with regards to eternal rewards? No, same/same. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322/400 "2013-07-12T14:48:36Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Yes. Do you try to follow what Jesus taught, or do you pick an choose among His instructions the same as the rest of the Bible? > [@](#): > > I am an optimist and believe that positive reinforcement produces better traingn results than negative reinforcement. Also, any deity who maintains a private torture chamber is evil, although one who simply destroys defective souls is acceptable to me. No reason a deity can’t be evil. The Bible is a pretty good descriptor of such. But basically you are saying you prefer to believe what you want to be true. I’ll accept that as a good description of the liberal Christian agenda. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christians-why-are-scientists-more-likely-to-be-non-believers/662322.md?page=21)