# Christmas and Secularism. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2018, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616 "2018-12-24T08:19:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/21 "2018-12-26T10:20:02Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > A lot of retailers–possibly most of them, excluding grocery stores–make half the money they will make all year between Thanksgiving and New Year’s, because of Christmas. This also applies to the grocery half the store I work in - although slightly greater weight for Thanksgiving week than for strictly non-grocery retailers. People buy a LOT of food this time of year. And booze. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/22 "2018-12-26T10:57:51Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > (Easter, a bigger deal to the Church, always falls on a Sunday so there’s no point in making it a legal holiday.) Good Friday and Easter Monday are public holidays in a large number of countries. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/23 "2018-12-26T13:29:28Z")
Over on r/atheism, everyone was wishing each other a merry christmas/ happy holiday yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/24 "2018-12-27T00:37:47Z")
I was raised Jewish, and my husband was raised Muslim. We’re both atheists, but we have a Christmas tree that stays up all year, though it’s only lit during the holidays. Totally secular. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/25 "2018-12-28T20:35:01Z")
The weird thing is the movie _The Ten Commandments_ has become an Easter tradition for a lot of people. Yeah, Easter is near Passover but still… ---
**Author:** ![upend](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b3f665/32.png) [@upend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/upend)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/26 "2018-12-31T12:41:07Z")
perhaps it would be easier for the OP to describe which of the various Christmas rituals are actually religious. I’m excepting going to church because that shouldn’t change through the year (you do or you don’t!) Almost everything else, I would contend are actually Victorian era things or later and almost all involve no Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/27 "2018-12-31T14:01:38Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I was raised Jewish, and my husband was raised Muslim. We’re both atheists, but we have a Christmas tree that stays up all year, though it’s only lit during the holidays. Totally secular. I was raised Jewish, my wife Catholic. Before we married I never had a tree or Santa anywhere in my house. To me it’s all religious, and I don’t celebrate except where it’s polite and helpful to my wife. It may all be cultural vs religious, but it’s never been part of my culture. That’s why I don’t consider it secular. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/28 "2019-01-04T13:14:30Z")
The three wise men (Magis) to welcome baby Jesus were : Indian (Hindu), Persian (Zoroastrian) and Arab (not sure Muslim or not). Why is then secularism touted as something modern ? In India, I grew up in a Hindu family (not very religious) wishing Merry Christmas to Christians and non Christians. We never looked at it as a secular thing. In a country where there are 1000s of festivals based on everyone’s belief, it was no big deal. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/29 "2019-01-04T13:22:31Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > The three wise men (Magis) to welcome baby Jesus were : Indian (Hindu), Persian (Zoroastrian) and Arab (not sure Muslim or not). Islam didn’t exist until several hundred years later. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/30 "2019-01-04T13:48:23Z")
Christmas in its modern incarnation has always been heavily secularized. The big jolly red suited Santa is the result of an advertising campaign (the original not having a set color for his suit). ETA: Actually, the US concept of Santa Claus himself is a strange amalgam of Christian and non-Christian traditions from several different countries and is a fundamental example of how we’ve mixed secular and religious traditions in the US. As mentioned above, Christmas trees, Yule logs, lights, gift exchanges, etc are all not really originally Christian in the first place. Even as a religious holiday in the US, it wasn’t originally widely celebrated in the US (we’re originally Protestant and were against anything that smacked of Catholicism) and it was the success and popularity of the secular aspects that turned it into a major holiday here. > [@DPRK](#): > > And yet, Christmas remains not a public holiday in Japan, any more than in Qatar, Mongolia, Israel, etc. Halloween isn’t a public holiday in the US and is still essentially a religious holiday. One that is widely, widely observed. It would be a grand stretch to assert most Americans treat it as primarily a religious holiday. And while St Patrick’s Day is a religious holiday, it’s not a public holiday in the US and the vast majority of Americans who observe it even in part would not associate it with organized religion, at least as we observe it here. Point being? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/31 "2019-01-04T14:31:19Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > The three wise men (Magis) to welcome baby Jesus were… According to various traditions they [might have been](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi#Traditional_identities_and_symbolism) many things. According to the [only Biblical source,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_2:12) however, they were simply “from the East.” As noted above, Islam did not exist. And “magi” is already plural, the Latin “magus,” derived from Greek. Happy eleventh day of Christmas, all! ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/32 "2019-01-04T14:48:46Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > The three wise men (Magis) to welcome baby Jesus were : Indian (Hindu), Persian (Zoroastrian) and Arab (not sure Muslim or not). > > Why is then secularism touted as something modern ? > > In India, I grew up in a Hindu family (not very religious) wishing Merry Christmas to Christians and non Christians. We never looked at it as a secular thing. In a country where there are 1000s of festivals based on everyone’s belief, it was no big deal. In the Catholic tradition they were all Zoroastrian astronomers. Their presentation of gifts is celebrated this coming Sunday, it is called Epiphany, and also known as The Revelation To the Gentiles (the Magi prefigure the spread of Christianity beyond the Jewish community). There is nothing in the Gospel to say where they were from (or how many there were) except that they were from “the East”. The history of Christmas shows that it always had a pagan origin (wassailing long predates the celebration of Jesus’ birth). Christianity laid a thin veneer over the Winter Bacchanal, and the combination of the Knickerbockers in the US and Dickens in Britain tamed it into the family/feast/capitalist greed orgy we know today. The religious aspect was always a countercurrent, unlike Easter/Passover. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/33 "2019-01-04T16:12:56Z")
The fact that the secular aspects of Christmas correlate precisely with a religious holiday and celebration, and that even many/most secular celebrations incorporate religious iconography, nomenclature, and music, make Christmas a most definitely religious holiday. One can appreciate it in a secular or “just cultural” way, of course, and in the comfort of one’s own home anything can be anything you want it to. But, walk out into the streets of America, and Christmas even at its most secular is a specifically-Christian cultural celebration. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/34 "2019-01-09T00:29:14Z")
I’m an atheist and consider Christmas to be a wholly secular holiday, having been wrested away from Christmas by business interests and others trying to make a buck. Sure there are residual elements of christain religion still attached to it, the same way there are still residual elements of pre-christian germanic winter celebrations attached to it (like the yule log). But as holidays go, it’s the jolly fat man’s holiday now. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/35 "2019-01-09T02:50:48Z")
> [@upend](#): > > perhaps it would be easier for the OP to describe which of the various Christmas rituals are actually religious. > . A creche. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/36 "2019-01-09T02:56:12Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Christmas in its modern incarnation has always been heavily secularized. > > The big jolly red suited Santa is the result of an advertising campaign (the original not having a set color for his suit). … > And while St Patrick’s Day is a religious holiday, it’s not a public holiday in the US and the vast majority of Americans who observe it even in part would not associate it with organized religion, at least as we observe it here. > > … True. Actually Thomas Nast\*, not a ad campaign, per se… He took it from A Visit from St. Nicholas aka Night before Christmas but made Santa human sized. _He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot, And his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot; A bundle of toys he had flung on his back, And he looked like a pedler just opening his pack. His eyes—how they twinkled! his dimples, how merry! His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry! His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow, And the beard on his chin was as white as the snow; The stump of a pipe he held tight in his teeth, And the smoke, it encircled his head like a wreath; He had a broad face and a little round belly That shook when he laughed, like a bowl full of jelly. He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,_ \*[How German Refugee Thomas Nast Invented How Santa Claus Looks Back During the Civil War - Long Island Wins](https://longislandwins.com/columns/immigrants-civil-war/german-refugee-thomas-nast-invented-santa-claus-looks-civil-war/) \*[thomas nast santa - Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?q=thomas+nast+santa&biw=1586&bih=864&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=KMV9M_GlwbZk5M%253A%252C5f6xA7O5wIkmzM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kToT-CGnGC2bMc54XMdBIuJx5tvVA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4k-2a2d_fAhUWJjQIHWiADekQ9QEwAnoECAUQCA#imgrc=KMV9M_GlwbZk5M:) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/37 "2019-01-09T02:57:52Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > The history of Christmas shows that it always had a pagan origin (wassailing long predates the celebration of Jesus’ birth). Christianity laid a thin veneer over the Winter Bacchanal, and the combination of the Knickerbockers in the US and Dickens in Britain tamed it into the family/feast/capitalist greed orgy we know today. The religious aspect was always a countercurrent, unlike Easter/Passover. Not at all, as I pointed out in a earlier thread:But the date has nothing whatsoever to do with any ancient Roman Pagan holidays. As Wiki points out:The earliest source stating 25 December as the date of birth of Jesus is likely by Hippolytus of Rome, written very early in the 3rd century, based on the assumption that the conception of Jesus took place at the Spring equinox which he placed on 25 March, and then added nine months – festivals on that date were then celebrated.[42] 25 March would also roughly be the date of his crucifixion, which ancient Christians would have seen as confirming the date of his birth, since there was a notion that the great prophets were conceived into the afterlife on the same date they were conceived into the world. John Chrysostom also argued for a 25 December date in the late 4th century, basing his argument on the assumption that the offering of incense in Luke 1:8–11 was the offering of incense by a high priest on Yom Kippur (early October), and, as above, counting fifteen months forward. Honestly, these were nothing more than educated guesswork. I certainly wouldnt count on them as solid by any means. But yes, the ancient Romans had a big bash around the Solstice, called Saturnalia. The holiday started on Dec 17th (but note that the ancient Roman calendar was anything but precise) and went on until the 23rd or so. Gifts giving, feating, merrymaking, costumes, etc. A real blow out. Mithras and Sol Invictus, both of whom only lasted for a short time, also has holidays associated with the Solstice. Dies Natalis Solis Invicti was even celebrated one year (at least) on Dec 25th, not the 21st the usual solstice, but again- remember the ancient Roman calendar was pretty fluid. So, why couldnt Christmas have been picked on Dec 25th to compete? Well, two things: 1. If you wanna compete with a big party, you dont put yours after they have one, you put on the same day or before. You dont want everyone partied out. Saturnalia was the 17th, and the other two mostly on the Solstice. 2. But the most important one is that Christmas wasn’t a party day. It was just another Saints Feasts day (which doesnt mean you have a big feast). Until the Middle ages\*, it wasnt celebrated with parties, gift giving, boozing and general merriment. I mean, if you’re gonna compete, you better have something better than “Go to church and light a candle”. So, it’s another case of someone putting a couple of coincidences together and coming up with a hypothesis that has existed as a meme. - and even then, Epiphany or the end of the twelve days, was the big holiday on January 6th. [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=867798](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=867798) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616/38 "2019-01-09T13:56:26Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > The big jolly red suited Santa is the result of an advertising campaign (the original not having a set color for his suit). If you are referring to the Coca-Cola Santa Claus, that’s not true. It’s a modern urban legend. Santa Claus in his distinctive red-and-white suit was a well-established image before the Coca-Cola ad campaign. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-and-secularism/826616.md?page=1)