# Christmas Elements that Predate Christianity **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415 "2013-12-15T22:13:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/21 "2013-12-17T16:46:33Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Boxing Day is on December 26. It is not a church feast and has nothing to do with the Epiphany. ignorance fought, mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/22 "2013-12-17T16:47:46Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Plus, the Epiphany is on 6 January, not 12 January. Wow. I didn’t even check my calendar. I guess I was having a bad day. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/23 "2013-12-18T08:28:56Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Sure. But runningdude’s basic point is valid. It’s not correct to say, as Senegoid did, that “Christmas was always a very minor Christian holiday”. Christmas was a fairly major holiday which, in comparatively modern times, became a minor holiday in certain traditions of western Christianity. **runningdude** and **UDS** : Help me refine my ignorance then. Christmas, as popularly celebrated today (at least in Western countries) is often criticized as an extravagant and overly commercialized gift-shopping orgy, a practice allegedly fomented by department stores in the late 1800s. Am I correctly understanding at least that aspect of Christmas? And, however important Christmas might have been in much earlier times, was it traditionally a gift-giving festival? A little bit? A whole lot? Not at all? I know the modern theory of Christmas gift-giving is claimed to follow from the gifting by the Magi. Was that theory in play all along? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/24 "2013-12-18T09:42:03Z")
I believe gift-giving was a feature of the pre-Christian Roman festival, and the Christians took it on along with the date. And, for a festival which celebrates, basically, the Incarnation, finding a material way of expressing love and joy is not entirely inappropriate, so I think it was a good fit. But the idea that you give really big (expensive) gifts, that gift-giving is at the centre of the festival – that probably _is_ the influence of modern capitalism. Other evidence of the significance of the festival is that it had its own music – a wealth of it, in fact. There’s a huge stock of Christmas carols (and another, slightly smaller, stock of Advent carols) from the medieval period onwards. And these are definitely carols written for communal singing, at a time when congregational singing was not normally a feature of church services. You wouldn’t have this vast stock of music being produced if people weren’t singing it. Obviously, people sang about Christmas in a way that they didn’t (and still don’t) sing about Easter. And the fact that they had different carols for Advent and for Christmas itself is also telling, I think, in terms of assessing how much impact the festival made in the cycle of the year. (Actually, that’s another part of the Christmas package that’s likely a Christian contribution, not a pagan inheritance – carols.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/25 "2013-12-18T12:08:53Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > And, however important Christmas might have been in much earlier times, was it traditionally a gift-giving festival? A little bit? A whole lot? Not at all? I know the modern theory of Christmas gift-giving is claimed to follow from the gifting by the Magi. Was that theory in play all along? In the Middle Ages, Europeans tended to celebrate Christmas by praying, singing, dancing, eating, drinking and playing. There were nativity plays and other traditional plays that were put on at Christmas. Christmas masses were said. Carols were sung and danced. Public sports and private games were played. And people would eat. Rich households would have large, elaborate meals, and peasants would generally be given meat by their lords. One of the traditions, which did come from German paganism, was that of the Yule Boar, and in Germany and England pork was often eaten on Christmas. Gift giving happened, but that was tied to a Roman custom of giving gifts on New Years Day, and not really linked to Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/26 "2013-12-18T15:52:11Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Plus, the Epiphany is on 6 January, not 12 January. For most Eastern Orthodox churches using the Julian calendar, the date is 19 January by our calendar. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/27 "2013-12-18T15:55:15Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > Christmas was always relatively important among Catholics; it was Protestants that condemned the holiday. I think most early Protestants simply condemned the excess of this, and other, holidays. Just like we (most modern Christians, not just Protestants) like to do today. ---
**Author:** ![TheSeaOtter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed655f/32.png) [@TheSeaOtter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSeaOtter)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/28 "2013-12-18T19:29:48Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > As for obviously Christian-sourced elements you’ve got the crib, the nativity play, the dedicated church services, Santa Claus. Santa Claus is an amalgam of various figures, one of whom was pre-Christian or at least non-Christian: Odin. According to Norse myth, supernatural events were more common during the midwinter festival of Yuletide (whence ‘Yule log’, while we’re on the subject), including the Wild Hunt, lead by Odin with his long white beard and flying horse. Odin was also known as a bringer of gifts. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/29 "2013-12-18T19:57:15Z")
Christmas elements that predate Christianity? Well, there’s **Au** , and **Ag** … ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/30 "2013-12-18T20:18:28Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Caroling, aka [wassailing,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wassailing) appears to have Anglo-Saxon roots. Wassailing as the Saxons understood it was apparently just a call-and-response drunkfest, so I don’t think that really counts. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/31 "2013-12-18T20:20:10Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > I know what you are referring to, but weren’t the druids also involved in some of the mistletoe customs? Or, am I thinking of something else? Yep, [mistletoe was sacred to the Druids.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_of_oak_and_mistletoe) ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/32 "2013-12-19T00:06:50Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Christmas elements that predate Christianity? Well, there’s **Au** , and **Ag** … My choice of words was ironic. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/33 "2013-12-19T08:49:27Z")
Is there really any evidence of decorating an evergreen tree, especially bringing one into the house, for Yuletide before the Late Middle Ages? > **[Christmas tree | Possible predecessors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree#Possible_predecessors)** > > Modern Christmas trees have been related to the "tree of paradise" of medieval mystery plays that were given on 24 December, the commemoration and name day of Adam and Eve in various countries. In such plays, a tree decorated with apples (representing fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and thus to the original sin that Christ took away) and round white wafers (to represent the Eucharist and redemption) was used as a setting for the play. Like the Christmas crib, the Paradise At... There are a whole lot of ‘Pagan customs’ that really aren’t. I was amazed when I found out how NON-ancient the Maypole is. > **[Maypole](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maypole)** > > A maypole is a tall wooden pole erected as a part of various European folk festivals, around which a maypole dance often takes place. > The festivals may occur on 1 May or Pentecost (Whitsun), although in some countries it is instead erected at Midsummer (20–26 June). In some cases, the maypole is a permanent feature that is only utilized during the festival, although in other cases it is erected specifically for the purpose before being taken down again. > Primarily found within the nations of G... ---
**Author:** ![Yumblie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/76d3ee/32.png) [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/34 "2013-12-19T22:30:50Z")
I’m pretty sure [Xm](http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/lookaroundyou/series1/period3.shtml) has been around for billions of years at least. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/35 "2013-12-22T21:02:40Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Is there really any evidence of decorating an evergreen tree, especially bringing one into the house, for Yuletide before the Late Middle Ages? > > [Christmas tree - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree#Possible_predecessors)… By coincidence just yesterday my local NPR station, WXXI-AM carried a short spot on the very topic of this thread, from “[Don’t Know Much about Mythology](http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Know-Much-About-Mythology/dp/0060932570)” and the speaker pointed out the difference between focusing on evergreen trees outside as a symbol of life transcending winter, and actually taking them inside. So, yeah, you’re right on track. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415/36 "2013-12-23T01:37:02Z")
Snow. Snow definitely predates Christianity and Christmas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-elements-that-predate-christianity/676415.md?page=1)