# Christmas Folklore Question: Kris Kringle as Santa Claus's Man? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 4, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431 "2015-12-04T18:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![awldune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@awldune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/awldune)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/1 "2015-12-04T18:16:55Z")
Not sure if this is a GQ question or a CS one. Really it is about folklore, but the question arises from a song. The old (and possibly quite obscure) song “Kris Kingle” (also known as “The Christmas Tree”) seems to depict Kris Kringle as Santa Claus’s helper: > [@](#): > > Who comes this way so blithe and gay, upon a merry Christmas Day? > So merrily, so cheerily, with his peaked hat and his reindeer sleigh, > With pretty toys for girls and boys, as pretty as you e’er did see? > **O, this is Santa Claus’s man, Kris Kringle with his Christmas tree.** > Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, > Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, > And jingle, jingle, jing-a-jing-a-jing, > Right merry shall you be, > And jingle, jingle, he comes this way, > He comes with a Christmas tree, > And welcome, welcome, welcome Kris, > Right welcome shall you be, > Oh here he is, yes, yes, he is, > 'Tis Kris with a Christmas tree, > The Christmas tree, the Christmas tree, > The Christmas tree, the Christmas tree. A later verse has the line, > [@](#): > > For he must call on one and all, **his master** ’s pretty pets you see, The song dates back to at least 1877 century, here it is in a newspaper: > **[Rockland County Messenger 20 December 1877 — HRVH Historical Newspapers](https://news.hrvh.org/veridian/cgi-bin/senylrc?a=d&d=rocklandmessenger18771220.2.13)** > > HRVH Historical Newspapers provides access to digitized copies of historical newspapers from the Hudson River Valley region of New York State. I am somewhat familiar with the origins of “Kris Kringle” in the German “[Christkindl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christkind),” but I understand that to have been a figure that was created as sort of a Christian alternative to Santa and would not appear in the same mythology as Santa and certainly would not be subordinate to Santa. If anyone can provide some insight here it would be most helpful! I have not found it an easy subject to google. As an aside, I am also intrigued by the notion in this song that Kris Kringle is bring the Christmas tree itself along with the gifts to go under it. I have no idea if this was ever a popular concept. ---
**Author:** ![awldune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@awldune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/awldune)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/2 "2015-12-04T18:32:02Z")
It has been a while since I started a thread here and I forgot about the edit window. Can the thread title be changed to, “Christmas Folklore Question: Kris Kringle as Santa Claus’s Man?” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/3 "2015-12-04T18:36:29Z")
Pretty much, here in America, Santa Clause and Kris Kringle (and St Nick)are all names for the same entity. ---
**Author:** ![awldune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@awldune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/awldune)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/4 "2015-12-04T18:44:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Pretty much, here in America, Santa Clause and Kris Kringle (and St Nick)are all names for the same entity. Certainly that is my understanding of the modern folklore as well. My curiosity is about what beliefs were in place in the 19th century when this song was written. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/5 "2015-12-04T19:01:41Z")
> [@awldune](#): > > It has been a while since I started a thread here and I forgot about the edit window. Can the thread title be changed to, “Christmas Folklore Question: Kris Kringle as Santa Claus’s Man?” Done. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/6 "2015-12-04T19:51:03Z")
> [@awldune](#): > > I am somewhat familiar with the origins of “Kris Kringle” in the German “[Christkindl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christkind),” but I understand that to have been a figure that was created as sort of a Christian alternative to Santa and would not appear in the same mythology as Santa and certainly would not be subordinate to Santa. Based on the name, and as confirmed by the Wikipedia page, Christkindl is basically Jesus. So it would make sense that Santa would be subordinate to him. The newspaper that you quote from was based out of [Rockland County](https://w.amazon.com/index.php/User_talk:Willch), which had a fairly large Dutch population (supposedly), which explains the Christkindl connection. So, my guess - should no one else have better information - is that the American Dutch and American English ended up both bringing their Holiday characters into the American whole and those got merged together over time. In the song, we’re seeing a point where they are still apart but have been brought together into a single universe. But, since one is Jesus, clearly he takes a higher position. ---
**Author:** ![awldune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@awldune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/awldune)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/7 "2015-12-04T20:07:23Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Christkindl is basically Jesus. So it would make sense that Santa would be subordinate to him. That definitely would make sense, but the song has it the other way around – Kris Kringle is Santa Claus’s man and Santa is his master. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/8 "2015-12-04T20:12:22Z")
> [@awldune](#): > > That definitely would make sense, but the song has it the other way around – Kris Kringle is Santa Claus’s man and Santa is his master. Hm…looking at the lyrics, it does seem to be that the main character is Kris so “his master” would be “Kris’ master”. Strange. ---
**Author:** ![awldune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@awldune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/awldune)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/9 "2015-12-04T20:17:39Z")
Indeed it is strange. This link probably won’t work forever, but you can hear a recording of the song here: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Aq-iLQYl4l4/maxresdefault.jpg "Kris Kringle") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq-iLQYl4l4) ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/10 "2015-12-04T23:48:13Z")
> [@](#): > > I am somewhat familiar with the origins of “Kris Kringle” in the German “Christkindl,” but I understand that to have been a figure that was created as sort of\*\* a Christian alternative to Santa\*\* and would not appear in the same mythology as Santa and certainly would not be subordinate to Santa. Nitpick: _Protestant_ alternative. Santa Claus is certainly of Christian origin (Saint Nicholas). ---
**Author:** ![donkeyoatey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@donkeyoatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/donkeyoatey)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/11 "2015-12-04T23:53:22Z")
I found many references to it as a “Sheffield carol” :[The Christmas Tree](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKJKh9oDb9Q) [This site](http://guf.org.uk/carols.pdf) credits [William Bradbury](http://www.wholesomewords.org/biography/bbradbury.html) ,but I can’t find anything saying if that’s the lyrics as well. > [@](#): > > A song associated with the carolling tradition of the villages in the hills to the west of > Sheffield. It was composed by William Bradbury and published in 1867. [The Brooklyn Daily Eagle Dec. 24 1854](http://bklyn.newspapers.com/image/50418741) credits [John Howard Raymond](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Howard_Raymond) for music and lyrics > [@](#): > > words and music by J.H.Raymond,LL.D. but that seems dubious. ---
**Author:** ![awldune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@awldune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/awldune)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/12 "2015-12-05T13:55:35Z")
Thanks for that research on the song! ---
**Author:** ![awldune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@awldune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/awldune)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/13 "2015-12-06T16:11:50Z")
I was talking to my mom about the song and she says that her grandparents, who were of German/Dutch descent, had a tradition of putting up the Christmas tree while the children were sleeping Christmas Eve night. They also only called Santa Kris Kringle. So maybe that is some insight into the “coming with a Christmas tree” part. No help on the “Santa Claus’s man” part though. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/14 "2015-12-07T09:23:58Z")
I take it the Kris Kringle and St Nickolas and Father Christmas were competing memes. My guess is that when the idea of St N’s servant (Black Peter etc) entered the field around the middle of the 19th century, this was one way of bringing the competing ideas together. As in “I know who Santa Claus is, who is this Kris Kringle bringing presents that I keep hearing about?” My family tradition was that the Christmas Tree appeared on Christmas Day, but I was never told that it was anything other than just the way Dad did it. ---
**Author:** ![Pbbls](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e68b1a/32.png) [@Pbbls](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pbbls)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-folklore-question-kris-kringle-as-santa-clauss-man/739431/15 "2015-12-07T13:40:52Z")
I have been doing research on old traditions and found that most of the holidays we have today are changed versions of Germanic and Nordic holidays. The Nords would get a log and decorate it with symbols of things they wanted to be blessed with throughout the next year. When Christians were converting them over they didn’t want to completely take their holidays away so they just changed them little by little over time. I also knew a girl from Holland. Their tradition was they put up stockings Christmas Eve and “Santa” filled their stockings at night. If you look into Norse mythology, you may find more answers.