# Christmas holidays & separation of church & state **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 1999, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044 "1999-12-11T21:29:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 1999, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/1 "1999-12-11T21:29:00Z")
In order to keep church & state separate, wouldn’t you have to eliminate Christmas holidays for federal workers? Easter, as well? Of course you could just CALL them something else, but it’d still be the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 1999, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/2 "1999-12-11T21:31:00Z")
Why is there not an atheist holiday? Would Christians be “forced” to celebrate it/ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Yossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/9de0a6/32.png) [@Yossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yossarian)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 1999, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/3 "1999-12-11T22:26:00Z")
I’d like to agree with you, but I’m too busy looking forward to my Christmas vacation. Around these parts (I work for the State of Texas), if a non-xian wants to take off a religious holiday that’s not already an “institutional” holiday like those mentioned, it’s a simple bit of paperwork and a done deal; their freedom of religion has not been abridged. Since most Americans are “xian” to some degree–or would at least claim such affiliation for vacation’s sake–the paperwork would be overwhelming, so the government goes ahead and gives in and the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Agnostics, etc., get time off, too. I’d interpret the first amendment to also include the liberty to not be forced to work if it interferes with your religious celebrating. In any event, we’re not “forced” to celebrate–unless you’re talking about a 12 year old agnostic forced to go to church by their parents! I celebrate these holidays by sleeping late. I’m as agnostic as the next guy, but don’t be touching my holidays! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 1999, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/4 "1999-12-11T23:42:00Z")
A co-worker of mine thinks the government should celebrate ‘Battle of Trenton Day’ on December 25 each year, to commemorate the occasion when George Washington and his troops crossed the Delaware on Christmas Day and caught the Hessians in mid-celebration. That would work for me. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 1999, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/5 "1999-12-12T14:11:00Z")
Trumpy: The answer is yes. (Although Easter is Sunday, so it’s kind of moot in general.) In fact, that discussion was one of the first threads here. I’ll go find it and post a link. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court, in all of its wisdom (read: too chicken to do the right thing), has declared Christmas a nonreligious holiday. Personally, if I were a Christian, I’d be offended. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 1999, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/6 "1999-12-12T14:12:00Z")
Here it is: [http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000008.html](http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000008.html) ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 1999, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/7 "1999-12-12T14:49:00Z")
David B said: > [@](#): > > the Supreme Court, in all of its wisdom (read: too chicken to do the right thing), has declared Christmas a nonreligious holiday. Personally, if I were a Christian, I’d be offended. How about “the Supreme Court, in all of its wisdom (read: acknowledging the obvious)…” Pray tell, what do a jolly fat old elf imitating a chimneysweep, decorated conifer kindling, shop till you drop, and airborne caribou have to do with Christianity, or any religion? Sure there is a religious holiday using the same name going on at the same time as the non-religious holiday but, as that religion’s leaders will tell you, its meaning is completely different. Judging by people’s actions, I’d say the secular holiday is way out in front of the religious one as far as observance goes. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 1999, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/8 "1999-12-12T14:55:00Z")
Yes, many people have forgotten the meaning, but that meaning is still the reason it is a holiday. I mean, the holiday is called **Christ** mas, after all. The tree is supposed to represent the cross Christ died on or some such thing (although it’s actually an excuse to use a pagan symbol, but that’s their problem, not mine). The fact is that it is most certainly _not_ a secular holiday. It is celebrated by Christians. Not Jews. Not Muslims. Not anybody else. Christians. It is a religious holiday that has gotten out of hand a bit, perhaps, but it is a religious holiday nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![smilingjaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@smilingjaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingjaws)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 1999, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/9 "1999-12-12T17:25:00Z")
FYI [http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19991207/od/christmas\_1.html](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19991207/od/christmas_1.html) I wish I could have found this with more of the doggerel quoted. My newspaper had more of it, but they don’t have a good search on their web page. 🙂 Merry Christmas! ---
**Author:** ![smilingjaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@smilingjaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingjaws)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 1999, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/10 "1999-12-12T21:33:00Z")
Forgot to ask–David, do you want to reconsider your statement that Christmas is celebrated only by Christians? I sure see a lot of Christmas trees around in houses of people who are secular humanists or atheists. I never heard that Santa only visited the Christians, either. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Surgoshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Surgoshan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surgoshan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 1999, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/11 "1999-12-12T21:49:00Z")
David, I’m an atheist. I consider Christianity to be a large truckload of bull leavings, but I’ll celebrate christmas. Hey, call me sentimental, but the greed just rips at my heartstrings. Plus, it’s fun. ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/12 "1999-12-13T15:01:00Z")
David to respond to your points: > [@](#): > > Yes, many people have forgotten the meaning, but that meaning is still the > reason it is a holiday. Are you referring to the birth of Sol Invictus? 🙂 Just as Christians hijacked a pagan holiday and made it Christian, so the nonreligious are hijacking a Christian holiday and making it secular. > [@](#): > > I mean, the holiday is called Christmas, after all. True, but etymology is not the same as meaning. For instance, the name used in the English speaking world for the Christian Feast of the Resuurection is derived from something to do with pagan fertility celebrations- I doubt that many bishops therefore consider Easter a pagan holiday. > [@](#): > > The tree is supposed to represent the cross Christ died on or some such thing > (although it’s actually an excuse to use a pagan symbol, but that’s their problem, not mine). Exactly- it is just feeble after-the-fact rationalization. My tree certainly represents no such thing, and I don’t personally know of any Christians who subscribe to the theory either. > [@](#): > > The fact is that it is most certainly not a secular holiday. That is merely your reassertion of the point in question. I believe it is wrong. Lets get back to advancing arguments for our respective positons. > [@](#): > > It is celebrated by Christians. Not Jews. Not Muslims. Not anybody else. Christians. This is inaccurate. I am a non-believer and I celebrate it. Other non-believers have told you they celebrate it. I know secular minded Jews and Muslims who celebrate it. I can’t find the post now, but I recall somebody posting something on this or another SD messageboard about how Christmas was becoming popular in Japan. > [@](#): > > It is a religious holiday that has gotten out of hand a bit, perhaps, but it is a religious holiday nonetheless. I beg to differ. It was a religious holiday; it no longer is so exclusively. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/13 "1999-12-13T17:04:00Z")
Tell it to the Pope. Ok, so I went overboard (never say “never”). Yes, some secular folks celebrate it, but they do so, in my experience, almost exclusively because they had Christian roots, even if they are atheists now. The point remains that it is a Christian holiday. Not Jewish. Not Muslim. Not Native American. Christian. Yes, a few Jews will rationalize that they want to celebrate something too. BFD. I also knew a few who clamored to see the Pope when he was in town a while back. Is the Pope secular? Frankly, all of this is just so much rationalizing, by the courts and those here defending them. Christmas is a Christian holiday. If it were not a Christian holiday, the government would never have given its workers the day off (you don’t see people getting Yom Kippur off, do you?). The current overcommercialization doesn’t change the fact that it is, at its heart and root, a Christian holiday. If non-Christians want to take off the day, good for you. But nobody should force governmental workers to take it off as a holiday if they don’t want to. I feel somewhat like I’m repeating myself, so I would encourage folks to check out the link to the earlier thread. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/14 "1999-12-13T17:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > If it were not a Christian holiday, the government would never have given its workers the day off (you don’t see people getting Yom Kippur off, do you?). Actually, yes I do. My husband teaches for the Los Angeles Unified School District. They shut down for Yom Kippur. -Melin ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/15 "1999-12-13T17:15:00Z")
D’oh! I should have known better than that! Yes, some public schools do shut down for Yom Kippur – if they have a large population of Jewish students and/or teachers. (In other words, they do it for logistical reasons, not religious ones.) Similarly, it would make sense to do this for Christmas in the schools as well (which doesn’t really come into play because all the schools are on winter break anyway). I was talking more along the lines of other governmental agencies. For example, you won’t see the EPA shut down on Yom Kippur. Sorry 'bout that. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/16 "1999-12-13T17:42:00Z")
The problem I see, David, is that if Secular Beauracrat Joe wants to work on Xmas, then Xian Watchman Bob has to work on his (Bob’s) religious holiday to unlock the door. I suspect that the vast majority of jobs where the employee has unassisted access to his place of work do not activly prevent employees from working that day, in the same way you are allowed to work at home on the holidays. (How can they stop you?) However, security at most comanies demands that someone else be there–something that can be diffucult to provide without trampleong on someone’s sensitivities. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/17 "1999-12-13T17:45:00Z")
David, those same logistical reasons exist throughout government for the Christmas holidays. And it’s a bit disingenuous, isn’t it, to say that “oh well, the schools are closed for winter break then anyway.” I’m willing to make a wager that the reason winter break exists is because of the Christmas holiday. -Melin ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/18 "1999-12-13T17:51:00Z")
David: My man, if you don’t want to celibrate it, then don’t. I don’t. * * * “It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/19 "1999-12-13T17:55:00Z")
Don’t you think it’s coercive, though, to say that I can’t do business with the post office because other people celebrate Christmas? 😉 (Just funnin’ ya.) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 1999, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044/20 "1999-12-14T06:18:00Z")
pl, I DO wish the post office would stay open on all holidays.I hate that everything shuts down.What if i want to see a movie(well,Blockbuster IS open),or anything? Manda: xian’s are people who worship BobDobbs,BTW. * * * We are on an irreversible path to democracy and freedom. But that could change-Dan Quayle [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-holidays-separation-of-church-state/17044.md?page=2)