# Christmas in the Schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 1999, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135 "1999-12-16T15:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/181 "1999-12-21T06:43:00Z")
> [@](#): > > As far as ignoring Melin, well, guess what? I’m ignoring Melin! What a mature, moderate, discussion-furthering comment! Don’t like the question? Shoot the questioner. David? Did the pre-school teacher have any idea that your family didn’t celebrate Christmas? Or were you both equally guilty of making bad assumptions? I’ve moved around a lot, and lived in neighborhoods that were anywhere from 0% Jewish to ~66% Jewish. The YWCA pre-school my kids attended at a Presbyterian church included coloring menorah pictures in their programs as well as Christmas trees & Santas (this in an area that might be 5-10% Jewish). But in other neighborhoods, including Chanukah in the program would have made as much sense as including Kwanzaa in the 66% Jewish neighborhood pre-school (with 0% African-Americans). At the pre-school level, if no kids are directly involved & including Chanukah means that some well-meaning but poorly-informed Christian mom tries to explain something she doesn’t understand, it is probably best omitted. Perhaps having grown up within a stronger Jewish community led you to believe that everyone included Chanukah in their programs. Perhaps not having dealt with other families who don’t celebrate Christmas for whatever reason led your child’s pre-school to believe that all of this year’s kids would, too. No evil intent on anyone’s part, no plot by Christians to convert your son, just simple ignorance. Had you approached the instructor in advance, I really believe something could have been worked out. But you didn’t anticipate the focus on Christmas & were caught by surprise. I’m sorry to hear that your child was hurt by this, but to put all the blame on the pre-school is not really fair either. Maybe you can help them include Passover amidst the easter eggs & bunnies to prevent a recurrence. ## More light, less heat. Sue from El Paso Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/182 "1999-12-21T07:42:00Z")
Hey Slythe, just to show you that you CAN mix math and myth – check this out! 😉 > [@](#): > > There are approximately two billion children (persons under 12) in the > world. However, since Santa does not visit children of Muslim, Hindu, Jewish or Buddhist (except maybe in Japan) religions, this reduces the workload for Christmas night to 15% of the total world population, or 378 million (according to the Population Reference Bureau). At an average (census) rate of 3.5 children per household, that comes to 108 million homes, presuming that there is at least one good child in each. > > Santa has about 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he travels east to west (which seems logical). This works out to 967.7 visits per second. This is to say, that for each Christian household with a good child, Santa has around 1/1000th of a second to park the sleigh, hop out, jump down the chimney, fill the stockings, distribute the > remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left for him, > get back up the chimney, jump into the sleigh and get on to the next house. > > Assuming that each of these 108 million stops is evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course, we know to be false, but I will accept this for the purposes of our calculations), we are now talking about 0.78 miles per household; a total trip of 75.5 million miles,not counting bathroom stops or breaks. This means Santa’s sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second, 2,340,000 miles per hour, or if you have a fetish for Mach speed (our Air Force friends love this one) - Mach > 3,120. For purposes of comparison, the fastest man-made vehicle, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second, and a conventional reindeer can run (at best) 17 miles per hour if being pursued by a pack of hungry wolves. > > The payload of the sleigh adds another fascinating element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium sized Lego set (two pounds), the sleigh is carrying over 500 thousand tons, not counting > Santa himself. On land, a conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that a “flying” reindeer could pull ten times the normal amount, the job can’t be done with eight or even nine of > them–Santa would need 360,000 of them. This increases the payload, not counting the weight of the sleigh, another 54,000 tons, or roughly seven times the Queen Elizabeth II (the ship, not the monarch). > > 600,000 tons of Christmas cheer traveling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance–this would heat up the reindeer in the same fashion as the Space Shuttle re-entering the earth’s atmosphere. The lead reindeer, Rudolf, would absorb 14.3 quintillion joules of energy per second per second. In short, he would burst into flames > faster than a 4th of July barbecue, exposing the eight remaining, terrified reindeer to a deafening sonic boom followed nanoseconds > later by a fiery Armageddon. The entire reindeer team would be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second, or right about the time Santa reached for the emergency bottle of Heinz hickory-flavored barbecue sauce in the cockpit of the sleigh. > > Not that it matters, however, since Santa, as a result of accelerating from a dead stop to 650 mps in .0001 seconds, would be subjected to acceleration forces of 17,500 g’s. Remember, a good Air Force plane driver, if such a thing exists, can withstand about 9-11g’s before blacking out. A 250-pound Santa (which seems slim even by Richard Simmons’ standards) would be rocketed to the back of the sleigh by > 4,315,015 pounds of force, instantly crushing his bones and turning his internal organs into a troubling pate. > > In short, Santa’s journey upon a midnight clear would reduce him and the barbecued reindeer team to a quivering blob of char-blackened goo. > > Therefore, if Santa did exist, he’s dead now. Get over it. Deal with > it. Merry Freakin’ Christmas. And to all – good night! -Melin “Ho Ho Ho” ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/183 "1999-12-21T13:13:00Z")
Slythe > [@](#): > > John-John, do you understand that Brother D has a Jewish background, was raised in a Jewish community, was born of a Jewish mother, and thus is part of the Jewish culture? **He was raised to have a Jewish outlook on life and living, and this does not change** if he changes just one aspect of his life. He is not Jewish merely because he believes in the same religion as other Jews. You don’t know this to be a fact. These are just assumptions on your part. What is a Jewish outlook on life and living? * * * Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/184 "1999-12-21T13:49:00Z")
I’ve seen and heard enough about “What constitutes a Jew,” to realize that I was wrong on this issue. It seems it has more to do with your mother than your beliefs, making a God belief system unnecessary. I am, therefore, persuaded, that I was wrong in thinking that a Higher Power was responsible for setting the standards of who would be considered worthy of being considered Jewish. It appears that Jewish is a loose terminology that is alternately used in religious or ethnic terms, depending on the circumstances. It also appears that certain members of the Jewish faith/ethnicity, as evidenced by poster in this thread, can and do set the standards for membership. If I am to understand what is posted, Judaism is an ethnic based religion that does not necessarily require a belief in God. * * * Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/185 "1999-12-21T13:53:00Z")
As another poster said the other day, Christians should not tell Jews what Judaism is about anymore than Jews should tell Christians what is or is not Christian about Christmas. * * * Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/186 "1999-12-21T13:55:00Z")
David, why did you leave out the crucial point that the pre school was private and NOT a Public School? * * * Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![Keeves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f05b48/32.png) [@Keeves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeves)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/187 "1999-12-21T14:33:00Z")
My sincere congratulations to John John for the courage to admit to his error, and his willingness to be corrected. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/188 "1999-12-21T15:21:00Z")
Thanks Keeves. There was just too much credible evidence. * * * Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/189 "1999-12-21T15:23:00Z")
**John** : Thanks for responding. It’s always helpful when we can come together on definitions, and I’m glad we were able to lend an assist here. To fill in your knowledge (and **Keeves** , please help me out here if I’m getting this wrong): Jewishness is not a “loose terminology,” and you were not wrong to think that “a Higher Power was responsible for setting the standards.” (Well OK, _I_ think you were wrong, but I don’t believe in a higher power at all, so there you go) To observant Jews, the blessings and burdens that G-d gave to Abraham and his descendants as His chosen people are not something from which a person may simply walk away. Jewish doctrine teaches that the pact G-d made with his people descends matrilineally through the generations. The simple fact that a person chooses not to follow Jewish doctrine, or even chooses not to believe in G-d does not relieve a person of his/her _obligation_ to do both. It is this historical obligation that makes a person Jewish from the perspective of the observant. And being a Jew, which most people think of (usually correctly) as being an “ethnic” or “cultural” thing, need not be. If, say, the ancestors of the Chinese Jews referred to by **Jab 1** on 12-20-1999 04:52 PM ever underwent a recognized conversion, than the matrilineal offspring of those who converted are, in the eyes of Judaism, Jewish. ## Assuming I got everything right, and assuming everyone agrees, thus endeth the hijack. I return you to your regularly scheduled debate as to whether Christmas is a Christian Holiday. Livin’ on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine ---
**Author:** ![Kepi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kepi/32/7251_2.png) [@Kepi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/190 "1999-12-21T16:27:00Z")
John John said: > [@](#): > > David, why did you leave out the crucial point that the pre school was private and NOT a Public School? If you go back and read the OP, you’ll see that it was a _ **public** _ school. It was a pre-school program offered through his local parks department. > [@](#): > > My 3 1/2-year-old son goes to a park district child-and-parent class. Maybe you should read the posts more closely before you start jumping to conclusions and making uninformed assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/191 "1999-12-21T16:28:00Z")
Manhattan > [@](#): > > …but I don’t believe in a higher power at all, so there you go) To observant Jews, the blessings and burdens that G-d… ## If you don’t believe in a Higher Power, are you a Jewish atheist too?, then why did you write the word G-d? Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/192 "1999-12-21T16:32:00Z")
I’m going to break my vow of ignoring certain people for one message here, to point out two facts which are both highlighted in a single portion of the second message I wrote in this thread (which was actually brought in from the previous thread). It answers the questions for both Sue and John John, and if either of them had bothered to read it, they wouldn’t have had to ask. Again, this explains my frustration throughout this thread as people have not bothered to pay attention… ☹ Majormd said: > [@](#): > > Did the pre-school teacher have any idea that your family didn’t celebrate Christmas? John John said: > [@](#): > > David, why did you leave out the crucial point that the pre school was private and NOT a Public School? I had said, in that 2nd message of the thread: > [@](#): > > He also goes to a park district pre-school. A couple weeks ago, the teacher pulled my wife and the mother of a Muslim boy aside after class to tell them that the classes were doing a “holiday” program (read: Christmas) and they could either allow our sons to participate or have them sit down with the parents during the program So, in answer to the questions. Sue: Yes, they knew. John John – It was not “left out” because he doesn’t go to a private pre-school. Park district = public. Now, back to Coventry with both of you. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/193 "1999-12-21T16:38:00Z")
> [@](#): > > If you don’t believe in a Higher Power, are you a Jewish atheist too?, then why did you write the word G-d? Nope. I’m a Catholic atheist. 😉 I wrote G-d as I did simply as a courtesy in case someone wished to copy and paste something from the post. I have no idea whether that is the proper thing to do, but one tries to be polite. * * * Livin’ on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/194 "1999-12-21T16:41:00Z")
kepi > [@](#): > > If you go back and read the OP, you’ll see that it was a public school. It was a pre-school program offered through his local parks department. That is not funded by State Educational money and is not, in strict terms, a Public School. I think if you check you will find that you have to pay for your child’s attendance, a token amount, in the program where his son went. States do not have the financial resources to fund pre school programs. Kepi, here’s a little advice, let David answer for himself and stop answering as if YOU were the one PERSONALLY involved in this situation. * * * Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/195 "1999-12-21T16:45:00Z")
John John, I can only conclude that you are wilfully refusing to accept the distinction between religious belief and ethnic origin that several posters have carefully and patiently explained to you. I am of French/Dutch/English stock. If I were to meet with Chaim Keller or Keeves, proselytize, and follow the rules that have been established for conversion, I could become a Jew, i.e., a follower of G-d after the Mosaic teachings, a member of the Jewish religion. By the same token, if Keeves was willing to subject himself as the servant of Allah and proclaim that there is no god but god and Mohammed is his prophet, he would become a good Moslem, i.e., a follower of the Islamic religion. I would remain a WASP ethnically, **and Keeves would remain a Jew**. His ethnic nature would not be changed by his conversion to another faith. By the same token, David and Phil are of Jewish origin. They have come to the conclusion that there is no reasonable evidence of the existence of god, and hence become pragmatic atheists. Their ethnic state has not changed. **They have become Jewish atheists.** Is this in any way difficult to comprehend? If we referred to them ethnically as Iacovites, after Jacob, and to the persons who believe in YHWH after the Mosaic revelation as Mosheists, would it clarify matters? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/196 "1999-12-21T16:49:00Z")
> [@](#): > > By the same token, David and Phil are of Jewish origin. They have come to the > conclusion that there is no reasonable evidence of the existence of god, and hence > become pragmatic atheists. Their ethnic state has not changed. They have become > Jewish atheists. To clarify as regards me, my _father’s_ family is the Jewish half; my mother’s half is Irish Protestant. That makes me, well, a belligerent drunk, but I feel really, really guilty about it! 🙂 * * * “It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/197 "1999-12-21T16:50:00Z")
## quote: He also goes to a park district pre-school. david > [@](#): > > A couple weeks ago, the teacher pulled my wife and the mother of a Muslim boy aside after class to tell them that the classes were doing a “holiday” program (read: Christmas) and they **could either allow our sons to participate or have them sit down with the parents during the program** So where is the problem? The teacher was fair and on top of the situation. ## You were given a choice and that is extremely fair. What did you do? Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/198 "1999-12-21T16:50:00Z")
Having read the emendations that followed my reading part of this thread and starting a post, I must withdraw my rather heated argument. John John, I apologize. Clearly you see the distinction, more or less, and were man enough to say so. Forgive my going off the deep end before I had finished reading. ---
**Author:** ![Kepi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kepi/32/7251_2.png) [@Kepi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/199 "1999-12-21T16:54:00Z")
John John - I don’t intend to get into a pissing contest with you, but I have two questions for you: 1. How do you know that the pre-school program in question is not funded by state funds? I don’t recall seeing any post here explaning the funding of the program. 2. How do you know that David had to pay anything for his child to attend? He has never mentioned anything regarding that here. I will concede that the program may not have been a public _ **school** _ per se. However, if it was offered through the parks department, it was a public, taxpayer-supported program that functioned in the manner of a public school. At the very least, it was anything but a PRIVATE pre-school, as you claimed when you accused David of “leaving out the crucial point that the pre school was private.” Thanks for the advice, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 1999, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/200 "1999-12-21T16:54:00Z")
Just gotta love the way David deals with difficult issues, don’t you? It sounds like what I hear when I’m up at school – in the kindergarten playground: “I don’t like her, so I’m not gonna talk to her any more!” Poor widdle biddy David, did somebody say something to make you realize you were a hypocrite? Or that made you look bad in front of the class? Aw, poor poor David, run to Mommy and tell her about the awful lawyer who kept asking a question you didn’t wanna answer, and wouldn’t go away even though you closed your eyes very tightly and wished very hard. “Mommy, do I have to tell her that I like the paper hearts the other kids give me, especially when that pretty girl writes ‘I luv you’ on it? And do I have to tell her that it’s fun to dress up in costume?” “No sweetie, you just ignore her and maybe she’ll go away and nobody else will notice.” David, we always knew you were an anti-Christian bigot. Now we know that you’re a hypocrite as well. Since you apparently are only about six years old, though, we can hope that you will grow out of it. -Melin [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135.md?page=11)