# Christmas in the Schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 1999, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135 "1999-12-16T15:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 1999, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/361 "1999-12-30T21:14:00Z")
Majormd: Nice posts on teh religious music thread. The only point I disagree with you about is whether it is reasonable to require a student who objects to a musical selection to stay on stage as part of the group while it is being performed. I am not certain this really minimizes disruption (will it not be obvious that some students are not performing? If not, does this not imply to the audience that all students are performing and have no issues with the musical selection?). Regardless, if the performance cannot stand upp to th edisruption of some students removing themselves from teh ensemble for a piece, then perhaps a musical selection that all students can stand behind is called for. To the rest: We do seem to fundamentally disagree on the manner and means by which symbols are incorporated into successive cultures and faiths. Personally, I find it inconsistent for Christians to accept the cross, the rosary, and the wine and wafers of communion while rejecting the Christmas wreath and tree. All have pagan precursors. All have been modified in style to conform to the currently fashionable beliefs. Jodih seems to deny the precursors of the cross because they had slightly different shapes. Of course, the Latin cross was not adopted as a widespread symbol of Christianity until the Carrolignian era. That shift is really not the point, though, the Christmas wreath has also changed in modern usage from the pagan original – all symbols shift in form when they are adopted into a new iconography. On the larger issue, though, I do not understand why people would argue that because a symbol has a pagan religious value rather than a Christian one it is therefore proper for dissemination in our schools. Religion belongs in the church, in the home and in the heart. It does not belong in the schools. That applies to Judaism, Islam. Bhuffism, Christianity and paganism. Children should not be required to make jack o’lanterns, stars of David, crosses or Christmas wreaths. Now, I agree entirely with the position that reasonable adult members of society should be able to differentiate between the secular and religious aspects of a celebration, but we are not talking about adults. We are talking about children. In paarticular, the OP addressed children of pre-school age. I do not think it reasonable to assume that pre-schoolers can divine the finer distinctions among the pagan, secular and Christian elements of Chrstman celebrations. To me, the underlying question behind this issue is, **why**? What possible reason is behind the decision to select these particular images and activities for children. There are thousands of other projects that involve the same tools, the same skills, the same lessons. Why is it necessary to choose one that relates **in any way** with a major religious holiday? (With all due respect to Melin, to point to a catholic schedule of holy days and say that teh nativity is not a major religious festival hardly takes into account the importance which the holiday is given in the majority of Christian congregations in this country.) NOTE: This is off topic, really, but the idea that the phrase “In God we trust” can carry any significantly secular message truly is absurd. If I sometimes get sensitive over the use of religion by government bodies it is precisely because of the attitudes behind this statement. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 1999, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/362 "1999-12-30T21:25:00Z")
oops. I meant to include in the above that I also understand the position of Christians who feel that non-Christians trying to tell them about the religious significance of Christmas symbols are overly sensitive if not outright ridiculous. There is an element of the absurd to it. However, I have also told proud southerners that the confederate battle flag is a symbol of racial division, whether they look on it that way or not. The reality is that most symbols many different meanings and interpretations. It is obviously impossible to know or plan for them all. It is not imposible, nor is it unreasonable, to understand the major interpretations within a culture and act accordingly. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Court\_Jester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/65b543/32.png) [@Court\_Jester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Court_Jester)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 1999, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/363 "1999-12-31T00:54:00Z")
Spiritus Mundi said: > [@](#): > > To me, the underlying question behind this issue is, why? What possible reason is behind the decision to select these particular images and activities for children. There are thousands of other projects that involve the same tools, the same skills, the same lessons. Why is it necessary to choose one that relates in any way with a major religious holiday? I think this has been addressed, but I will give you my take on it. Part of the problem in schools is keeping youngsters with limited attention spans interested. A way to maintain interest is to do projects that they are already excited about. For the majority of American kids (I would even say vast majority) from the day after Thanksgiving they are most excited about Christmas. So if you can give them projects that teach the basic skills using Christmas themes you have a built in interest. Now is where the whole secular/religious deal comes in. If the teachers picked a cross or manger scene she would be vilified (rightly so) because those things are very definitely related to Christianity. A christmas tree, an ornament, a wreath and Santa Claus, while still associated with Christmas the holiday, have much weaker links to Christianity. BTW – I grew up in a Christian home, and until it was mentioned in this thread I had never heard the connection between a holly wreath and the thorn of crowns. So, you have a time when kids are most excited by Christmas, but Christmas is a religious holiday, therefore you pick the most secular projects you can. Another example would be to have a Dreidel project. * * * A hat with bells on is not funny, it is the jester underneath. ---
**Author:** ![Phaedrus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@Phaedrus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phaedrus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 1999, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/364 "1999-12-31T01:00:00Z")
Spiritus Mundi: I think I saw you make a distinction between what is legal and what is moral (right). Good distinction. Phil: “In God We Trust”? Let’s be honest, its religious. Just like when they open Congress with a prayer to God or even (in my eyes) they have you put your hand on a Bible to swear to tell the truth. I think you just might have a point here. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 1999, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/365 "1999-12-31T22:16:00Z")
GAUDERE – I know South Park; I like South Park; you, sir, are no South Park. 😉 * * * Jodi _Fiat Justitia_ ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 1999, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/366 "1999-12-31T22:57:00Z")
Heck, I’m not even a sir. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2000, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/367 "2000-01-01T03:17:00Z")
Court Jester: Point taken, but I do not find it sufficient. The hottest thing among children these days is Pokemon cards. Shall we therefore model all lessons around Pokemon so that we can capture the dear little tykes’ short attention spans? Are you saying that for the rest of the school year our teachers have the ability to interest and instruct our children but that this aptitude mysteriously vanishes around major holidays? I agree that it is an easy shortcut to children’s interests. I agree that teachers have a difficult and demanding task. I do not agree that those two facts justify taking this particular shortcut. And, for the record, Gaudere is not South Park. She’s the Simpsons. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Court\_Jester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/65b543/32.png) [@Court\_Jester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Court_Jester)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2000, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/368 "2000-01-01T06:09:00Z")
Spiritus Mundi asks: > [@](#): > > Are you saying that for the rest of the school year our teachers have the ability to interest and instruct our children but that this aptitude mysteriously vanishes around major holidays? ## No,sir, I don’t. But if you talk to a teacher about elementary age children, I think they will tell you that in the weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas, the number one thing on kids minds is Christmas. How many Pokemon cards will Santa bring me? Will I get that Pokemon gameboy game? I will bet that some teachers do art projects that feature Pokemon characters. I know when my kids were in school, they did art projects that featured Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I missed it, Ninja is probably a type of religion and I should have objected. A hat with bells on is not funny, it is the jester underneath. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2000, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/369 "2000-01-01T09:58:00Z")
Nope. Ninjas were semi-mythical spies/assassins in feudal Japan. Thank you for giving yet another obvious counter-example to the premise that it is somehow necessary to invoke Christmas to interest children in art projects, etc. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Court\_Jester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/65b543/32.png) [@Court\_Jester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Court_Jester)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/370 "2000-01-03T03:40:00Z")
Hmmm, of course when my small children were given Ninja Turtle projects on December 12, they colored them red and put beards on them… * * * A hat with bells on is not funny, it is the jester underneath. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/371 "2000-01-03T07:56:00Z")
Good for them. I never could stand Eastman’s color schemes. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Phaedrus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@Phaedrus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phaedrus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2000, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/372 "2000-01-03T08:58:00Z")
Yur all mising tha piont, i thik driuds ir evel an’ thy shood stip th’ hloe thang! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135.md?page=18)