# Christmas in the Schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 1999, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135 "1999-12-16T15:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 1999, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/101 "1999-12-19T23:55:00Z")
Well, that’s what I get for trying to fight someone else’s battles for him. It just didn’t seem fair to me for everyone to insist he respond today when it’s likely he simply isn’t here. **John John** , just because he was born to parents who practiced the Jewish faith and has the last name of Bloomberg doesn’t mean HE has to believe in Judaism. It isn’t something one is born with, it’s something one must be taught. And one is free to refuse to believe in something one has been taught. And if one has evidence that what one has been taught isn’t true, it seems to me that one is _obligated_ to reject it. Let me ask you something: Have you always believed the world has too many people, or is this something you’ve chosen to believe only recently? Were you born a Christian or was it something you learned? I don’t know your last name, so I haven’t a clue of what your background is, but since you expressed worry that atheists want to take Christmas away from you (which isn’t true, we just don’t want people to try to force it on us or our kids), I have to assume you’re Christian. To everyone: Elsewhere on this Board, I announced that I’d be going back to Texas to see Mom for the holidays. I’m an atheist. It makes her a bit uncomfortable that I am, but it’s more important to her and to me that we still love each other. If the subject comes up, I’ll discuss it politely. I’m not gonna come in the door and say, “Why do you still believe this? Give me the evidence that there really was a Jesus Christ and that he rose from the dead!” That would simply be rude. (I’m not going to ask her at all, because I already know.) I am going to see her and some of my other relatives not because it’s Christmas, but because _I love them._ The holiday is just an excuse. It’s more force of habit than anything else. They expect it and so do I. If we were Jewish, Channukah would be the excuse. If we were pagan, the Winter Solstice would be the excuse. And so on. (Or it would be for me. It’s more than an excuse for them. I respect it even if I don’t agree with or understand it.) I respect it from others when they know when to back off. * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/102 "1999-12-20T00:55:00Z")
See ya next year! * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/103 "1999-12-20T01:25:00Z")
Gaudere > [@](#): > > John John, you can be both a Jew and an atheist. If your mother was Jewish, you are considered a Jew, whether you believe in God or not. really? I do not want to hyjack this discussion into what is a Jew. You have to realize that Judaism is based on a central belief in God. If you do not believe in God how can you still call yourself a Jew? Is Judaism a religion? Let’s not discuss that issue in this thread. Maybe start a new thread, if you think it’s important. * * * Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/104 "1999-12-20T01:29:00Z")
gaudere > [@](#): > > Your “George B” comment was funnier before the correction, John John. I thought you were using humorous understatement. I strongly suspect George B(ush) is not an atheist, too. nope, just not thinking and dumb on my part. 🙂 * * * Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/105 "1999-12-20T01:37:00Z")
No, George Bush was the man who, when asked during a political campaign about the civil rights of atheists, said that because this nation was founded on Christian principles he didn’t consider atheists to be full citizens of the United States. Did all the “rightous” people rise up to challenge him? Well, let’s just say that the silence was deafening. So, Brother D. should have realized that, since he was moving into a “Christian Community”, he would have to put up with the Chirstian outlook in the _public_ school system? Apparently, the rights of the minority have no place in your world-view. Why is there no response to my proposal of celebrating different holidays each year in school? Is it absolutely essential that the public schools promote your holiday over all others during that time of year? Melin? For the last time, schools do NOT celebrate Halloween as a pagan holiday. They celebrate it as a generic holiday, because to do anything else would be to encur the rightious wrath of every church in the community. Those small-minded twits still equate paganism with satanism, and as liberal as some Christians claim to be, it’ll be a cold day in Hell before Satanism is discussed in the public school system. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/106 "1999-12-20T01:51:00Z")
Jab1 > [@](#): > > Let me ask you something: Have you always believed the world has too many people, or is this something you’ve chosen to believe only recently? Were you born a Christian or was it something you learned? I don’t know your last name, so I haven’t a clue of what your background is, but since you expressed worry that atheists want to take Christmas away from you (which isn’t true, we just don’t want people to try to force it on us or our kids), I have to assume you’re Christian. Fair questions, Jab, so let me answer them. I did not always think there were too many people in the world because there wasn’t until recently. It is not a belief as much as a recognition of fact. I was born Christian and then embraced it, rejected it, learn to respect it, was confused by it, found it hard to believe, found it hard to live up to and then finally realized it was part of who I was, in part. I respect your honestly about yoorself and your mom. I’m gald you are big enough to maj=ke her day even if you don’t fully embrace it. You are to be applauded for that unselfish act. I do not think atheist are trying to take Christmas away. I think they are the biggest fans of Santa and the Fir Tree festival, Winter Solstice, Yule cheer, egg nog and wassle. My bacground is English, Scots, Irish. My last name is in my profile. jab1 > [@](#): > > John John, just because he was born to parents who practiced the Jewish faith and has the last name of Bloomberg doesn’t mean HE has to believe in Judaism. It isn’t something one is born with, it’s something one must be taught. **And one is free to refuse to believe in something one has been taught. And if one has evidence that what one has been taught isn’t true, it seems to me that one is obligated to reject it.** I totally agree and respect that. * * * Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/107 "1999-12-20T01:52:00Z")
I know you said you didn’t want to discuss it in this thread, but i think we can clear this up quickly. We have this post in the [Jews for Jesus](http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000334.html) thread, but the redoubtable Akiva Miller (Keeves): > [@](#): > > At the risk of making a too-sweeping over-generalization, it is still somewhat safe to say that one of the main differences between Judaism and Christianity is in the emphasis placed on belief and faith (Christianity) as opposed to actions and responsibilities (Judaism). This is an important point, because it is the source of some of the misconceptions each group has about the other. > > Judaism sees itself not as an ethnic social group of like-minded people, but as a group who have specific obligations assigned by God. The concept of an “obligation” includes the idea that it is not optional. If a person could evade his obligations with resulting consequences, then it was not really an obligation to begin with. But it was an obligation to begin with. This leads us to the rule that once a person has those obligations, he cannot escape them. Once a Jew, always a Jew. > > There are two ways to become a Jew: by birth, and by conversion. > > The simplest way to be Jewish is to have a Jewish mother; if a Jewish woman has a child, then that child has these obligations as well. (If you want to discuss why it is the mother, rather than the father or both, that can go in another thread. It is not relevant here.) The other way is that a person who is not Jewish and does not have these obligations can volunteer for them. But volunteering for something is not the same as having to do it, and these will only become actual obligations if the non-Jew performs specific acts to convert to becoming a Jew. > > Getting back to Jodih’s question, a Jew who does not believe in God is still considered religiously Jewish, in the sense that all the obligations of a Jew still apply to him. (And if the subject is a woman, to her children as well.) He’s just not acting in the way Judaism believes that God wants him to act. You can read the rest of the thread if you would like a more thorough explanation. Rest assured, David can be both an atheist and a Jew. * * * “…The Sun required a sacrifice To keep from getting dim, And when Mithras slew the bull, old Sol Came down to feast with him…” Happy Mithrasmas, all! ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/108 "1999-12-20T01:53:00Z")
“_by_ the redoubtable Akiva Miller”, I meant to say. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/109 "1999-12-20T02:00:00Z")
Gaudere found a gem of truth in a _Jews For Jesus_ thread started by ARG220 himself?? Closest thing to a miracle I’ve EVER seen! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/110 "1999-12-20T02:04:00Z")
Slythe, please tell me where and when George Bush said “atheist are not full citizens”? That sounds like a 1/4 lb whopper to me. I think your proposal of celebrating all the holidays at once is Ok. Do we celebrate all the rest that way too? Do you think Christmas, Hunakkah and Kwanza have equal importance? You realize that Hunakkah is a VERY minor holiday on the Jewish calendar? * * * Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![John\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@John\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_John)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/111 "1999-12-20T02:18:00Z")
> [@](#): > > it is still somewhat safe to say that one of the main differences between Judaism and Christianity is in the emphasis placed on **belief and faith (Christianity)** as opposed to **actions and responsibilities (Judaism)**. This is an important point, because it is the source of some of the misconceptions each group has about the other. This is utter boulderdash!! Christians have no actions and responsibilities? Jews have not belief and faith? This is not so general as muchh as so unenlightened and fragmented. We believe the messiah came and we celebrate His birthday on CHRISTMAS, Jews do not believe he has come yet. This discussion is not for this thread. * * * Y2K, BFD ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/112 "1999-12-20T02:37:00Z")
Keeves said the difference was between the _emphasis_ placed on either faith and belief or actions and responsibilities. He did not say Christians did not care about works or that Jews did not care about faith. Don’t read into it things that are not there. The George Bush quote: [http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/archive/atheism.faq.html](http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/archive/atheism.faq.html) > [@](#): > > “No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/113 "1999-12-20T02:59:00Z")
Gaudere, thank you very much. In the middle of doing research on the quote, I checked back on the thread and saw your reply. John John, have you considered taking a course on reading comprehension? I made no mention of celebrating all the holidays at one time-I suggested celebrating the holidays of different religions and cultures each year to further the children’s cultural background. This obsession you have with putting down Kwaanza and Chanukah does disturb me, though. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/114 "1999-12-20T03:34:00Z")
Slythe, let me use words you seem to understand (your own) to see if I can get you to understand the hypocrisy of your stance: Melin? For the last time, schools do NOT _Slythe?For the last time, schools do NOT_ celebrate Halloween as a pagan holiday. They _celebrate Christmas as a Christian holiday. They_ celebrate it as a generic holiday, because _celebrate it as a generic holiday, because_ to do anything else would be to encur the _to do anything else would incur the_ rightious wrath of every church in the _righteous wrath of every non-Christian (and many Christians, since there are so many ways of celebrating it) in the_ community. - Slythe _community._ - me ## Your proposal is not without merit. If you have kids in a public school & don’t like how the holidays are done, become active in the PTA & try to change things. There’s no way to lose credibility faster than tearing down something that someone else has created but stand around with your hands in your pockets refusing to help rebuild something better. But you’d better go with a myopic intent of eradicating Christmas than you’ve displayed here. Sue from El Paso Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/115 "1999-12-20T03:36:00Z")
Correction to previous post: better go with a **LESS** myopic intent ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/116 "1999-12-20T03:55:00Z")
Sue, I _am_ a part of the local PTSA. No hypocracy on my part, since I don’t mind Christmas being celebrated, as long as other cultures get the same promotion in the school system. When children get the point of Christmas at home, in church, in various news stories and editorials, and the myriad television specials that pervade the season, the true history of the symbols used, the older religions done away with, and the people who believe differently get left by the wayside. My comment you quoted on wasn’t about hypocracy, it was about the difference between teaching Halloween as a non-secular holiday, and teaching it as a pagan holiday. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/117 "1999-12-20T04:16:00Z")
It’s been years since I was in school, but I remember kids dressing up like like Ghosts, Goblins, and Witches, etc. Why would _that_ not offend some religious types? (I mean, _witches_ are something that some people find disturbing, they might not want their darling children exposed to such things at a _public_ school.) Do public schools today still allow kids to dress up as these things? Do they have Hallloween decorations that include images of witches, etc.? I assume at least some schools still do. What is so “generic” about witches? Some people do observe Halloween as a religious holiday (I worked with a girl who was a witch, and got the day off for religious reasons.) It is true that it’s religious background is not taught at schools, and I have yet to be convinced that Christmas’ religious elements are either. But they both _are_ observed (by some) as relgious holidays outside of school. They have a lot in common on those points. I am not convinced at this point that Halloween is treated in a more “generic” manner than Christmas is. I guess I’d like some clarification on that point. I am not actually thinking that David has no merit to his complaint. I don’t want kids to feel left out, and I don’t want anyone’s religion shoved down little kid’s throats. However, I just want to know his answer to the oft-asked (and oft-ignored, by him) question about these other holidays. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/118 "1999-12-20T06:15:00Z")
Slythe, pardon me for interpreting: > [@](#): > > If all the trappings point to the same religion, I would consider it offensive and underhanded. Trying to point to each individual incident and saying,“How can you object to this little thing?”, and"How can you object to that little thing?" is the equivalent of my throwing a large pile of dirt in you face and saying,“How can you object to this tiny piece of dirt?” and “How can you object to that tiny piece if dirt?” The totality of the experience is what matters, and in my opinion, the totality points heavily torwards religious influence in some school situations. > -Slythe 12/18 01:12 PM and > [@](#): > > I don’t think so. orangecake’s reference to “rastafarianism” shows the true nature of Christian tolerance of other beliefs in this country. “Hey, we made a token mention of three other religions, so leave us alone!” What is so evil about leaving religion out of one aspect of our lives, the _public_ schools? Is Christianity so weak that it must be re-enforced constantly, even against the wishes of a minority? I am soooo glad other religions were mentioned at the _Christ_mas celebration. Was there a school-wide Hannukah celebration where there was a token mention of Christianity? How was Ramadan celebrated? Were there any Pagan celebrations or ceremonies presented to the whole school, with weeks of preparation, and parents invited to watch? IMHO, the token mention of other religions and beliefs in today’s public school is an insult which far outweighs any perceived slight felt by the Christian community. > -Slythe 12/18 05:03 PM and lastly, > [@](#): > > IMHO, a public school should use it’s limited time and funds to prepare children for the real world. Reading, writing, math, social skills necessary to interact with others who are different, > -Slythe 12/19 12:56 PM as indicating that you agreed with David’s assertion that no observance of Christmas should occur in public schools. Schools do not observe Christmas as a religious holiday - they include coloring presents under a tree and making red construction paper Santa hats into existing programs, and usually hold a Winter Concert (Holly Jolly Christmas is an equal opportunity offender) with such songs as Silver Bells & White Christmas(which does sound pretty silly in Florida.) To sidestep the pagan issues, most schools do not make mention of the Nativity. Which is why it is probably inappropriate to have whole programs dedicated to celebrating Chanukah, Easter, Beltaine, Ramadan, or other religious holidays - these religious occasions(much to the relief of their respective adherents) have not been overshadowed by the secular trappings to the degree Christmas has. I know of no Christian faith in which Christmas is the major holy day. Easter is the occasion which celebrates the core message of Christianity - Christ’s victory over death & our ability to share in that victory. Epiphany (you know, Jan. 6th, when schools are long since back in session & stores have pink & red hearts up, and anyone humming a Christmas carol is asking to be shot) has historically been the 2nd highest holy day in the Catholic calendars, and is still the gift-exchanging day in many Hispanic communities as it is in Mediterranean countries today. Ever see an Epiphany presentation in public schools? I haven’t. * * * Sue from El Paso Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/119 "1999-12-20T08:00:00Z")
Argh - I knew I was forgetting something when I posted the last part, but had to get off-line quickly… Pentecost (the gift of the Holy Spirit) is the 2nd highest holy day; Epiphany has been the 3rd, in commemoration of the fact the Jesus came not just for the Jews, but to spread his message to the whole world. * * * Sue from El Paso Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 1999, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135/120 "1999-12-20T11:39:00Z")
Her’s your cite, John (from [http://www.airspeed.com/%7Eshydavid/aa011.htm,](http://www.airspeed.com/%7Eshydavid/aa011.htm,) but you can find it elsewhere, too): When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O’Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates had the following exchange with then Vice President Bush. ``` Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists? Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in god is important to me. Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists? Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God. Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church? Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists. ``` On October 29, 1988, Mr. Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane, cochairman of the Bush-Quayle '88 Illinois campaign. This concerned a law- suit Mr. Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School District 21 (Chicago, Illinois, suburb) from forcing his first-grade atheist son to pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States “one nation under God” (Bush’s phrase). The following conversation took place. ``` Sherman: American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday. Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing? Murnane: It's bullshit. Sherman: What is bullshit? Murnane: Everything that American Atheists does, Rob, is bullshit. Sherman: Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush campaign is on this issue. Murnane: You're welcome ``` This suit, now in federal district court for over three years, is not considered to be bullshit by the federal judge before whom it is pending. During the time it has been in the federal court, Robert Sherman’s son, now age nine, has been physically and psychologically brutalized in his school for refusing to pledge to a “nation under God.” After Bush’s election but before his taking office, American Atheists wrote to Bush asking that he consider being sworn into office on the Constitution instead of the Bible and also asking him to retract his August 1987 statement. Bush had his White House buddy, C. Boyden Gray, counsel to the president, reply on White House stationery on February 21, 1989, stating that substantively Bush stood by his original statement. ``` "As you are aware[sic], the President is a religious man who neither supports atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or supported by the government." ``` American Atheists had not asked Bush to either “unnecessarily” or even “necessarily” encourage or support them. All they wanted was an apology for the insult. Many atheists wrote to Bush over the issue and Nelson Lund, the associate counsel to the president, found it necessary to reply on April 7, 1989, directly to the American Atheist General Headquarters, Inc. This letter from the White House said that Mr. Gray was adhering to his statements in the February 21, 1989, letter. On May 4, 1989, Jon Murray, the president of American Atheists, again wrote to President Bush demanding a clarification of and an apology for his statement that atheists “should not be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots.” Bush ignored the letter, as did Gray and Lund. Mr. Murray also asked for an appointment so that a group of representatives of American Atheists could meet with Bush. Mr. Joseph W. Hagin 11 responded on May 25, 1989, again on White House stationery. He stated that the president “appreciated your taking the time to write and your willingness to share your thoughts” but that “due to heavy commitments on his official calendar” the president could not meet with representatives of American Atheists. On January 9, 1990, George Bush, in signing a proclamation for the Martin Luther King holiday, had the gall to remark that “bigots” must be brought to justice. Again, American Atheists threw his words back in his face, asking what his designation of atheists as being unworthy of citizenship was. On February 5, 1990, Mr. Nelson Lund replied again on White House stationery— stating ``` "We believe that our position has been adequately explained in previous correspondence." ``` Indeed it has and that position is that George Bush is a bigot. ## slythe, Gaudere and jab: We’ve all been down this road with ol’ Johnny before on the old AOL board. He doesn’t believe Jews should be allowed to practice their religion (or not practice it) as they see fit; he believes they should practice it how HE sees fit. Ask him about kosher foods and ritual cleansing by Orthodox Jewish women. He’ll go positively apopleptic. “It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-in-the-schools/17135.md?page=7)