# Christmas is a Christian fraud! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-is-a-christian-fraud/431054 "2007-12-23T21:57:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-is-a-christian-fraud/431054/81 "2007-12-26T17:43:38Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] The world was a different place in 70 A.D. News traveled very slowly. If there had been a census of the whole world it would most likely have been written down in more places than the Bible. Much of the New Testament was written after the fact and it would not be surprising if few people had heard of a census of the entire world. If one takes Matthew and Luke separately one of the versions had to be wrong. At 8 days Jesus was said to be in Jerusalem in the temple.It seems the Holy family did a lot of running around during that first period of Jesus birth. Monavis [/QUOTE] Ridiculous. In 70 AD (there were still people around who’d have remembered (first hand or from stories their parents told) what happened. If a census had NEVER taken place, people who read the Gospel account would instantly have said, “Oh, bullshit!” Remember, by definition, anyone READING the Gospel account was literate. That means educated. The idea that the Gospel’s readers were gullible peasants is flat out wrong. Heck, the author of the Gospel of Luke was a Greek physician, NOT a Galileean fisherman. (Oh wait, I forgot, he was in on the fraud, right? Still, you’d THINK an educated Greek could think up a better fake story to fool the rubes, wouldn’t you?) Second, WHY do you think the authors felt the need to make up a phony story? Because educated Jews knew that the messiah was SUPPOSED to be born in Bethelehem, right? Well… wouldn’t such EDUCATED Jews also know dam nwell that there hadn’t been any census? The only people who might fall for such a phony account were witless, illiterate, superstitious sorts who 1. Couldn’t have read the Gospels in the first place. 2. Wouldn’t have known anything about the prophesies regarding Bethlehem and would have been perfectly happy to believe the messiah was from Nazareth. ---
**Author:** ![Oliveritaly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oliveritaly/32/15233_2.png) [@Oliveritaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oliveritaly)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-is-a-christian-fraud/431054/82 "2007-12-26T19:09:23Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] And what about the Little Drummer Boy, who had no gift to give but a solo drum performance? Well, he exists only in a song written in 1958. But don’t worry, kiddies. Someday, if Christianity still exists, if the human race has not yet put religion on the junk-pile of superstitions, Christians will tell you with a staight face that there was a little drummer boy in the stable alongside the Magi, Shepherds, ox and ass, doves, and maybe Chilly Willy the Penguin! [/QUOTE] Way to piss off Santa Valteron! I’ll make some calls to the North Pole but man … I think you’re screwed come Christmas '08. For the record, Chilly Willy was with me when Jesus was born … we were having a few brews at a bar in Ibiza … he was having ‘chick problems’ again and needed to get out of the house. Just wanted to set the record straight. ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-is-a-christian-fraud/431054/83 "2007-12-26T20:05:05Z")
> [@](#): > > You see, Yuletide is celebrated at the end of December because that is when the days are short and gloomy, and we need a festival to lift our spirits. So our pagan ancestors started a yearly celebration to replace the missing sunshine and warmth of summer. They would cut down a tree that was still green in spite of winter, bring it into the house, and decorate it with lights and round ornaments so that it looked like a tree full of fruit basking in sunshine. > > They lit Yule logs and lots of candles. They sang songs and ate good food. And every year, just after the festival, the days start to get longer again! So, um, just where do the Holly King and the Oak King fit into all of this? ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-is-a-christian-fraud/431054/84 "2007-12-26T20:08:49Z")
[QUOTE=nd\_n8] So, um, just where do the Holly King and the Oak King fit into all of this? [/QUOTE] In case you hadn’t noticed, holly stays green as well. Also, while oaks don’t stay green, they hold onto their leaves all winter, so are a symbol of perseverence against the cold and the dark. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-is-a-christian-fraud/431054/85 "2007-12-26T20:44:04Z")
[QUOTE=astorian] Ridiculous. In 70 AD (there were still people around who’d have remembered (first hand or from stories their parents told) what happened. If a census had NEVER taken place, people who read the Gospel account would instantly have said, “Oh, bullshit!” … [/QUOTE] Really? So your point is that every 80+ year old reading Luke would say “Gosh, I don’t remember a census. So this must be a fraud!!!”??? I remember filling out a census form in 2000, but there’s a good chance that I won’t bother mentioning it to my children. Now, the idea that Joseph would have been required to travel to the town that an ancient ancestor had lived in several centuries earlier is ridiculous, but people today don’t blush at it, so why would they have then? They would have interpreted the “whole world” part to be a bit of hyperbole, and moved on. No big deal. Of all the pro-Christian arguments that I’ve heard, the idea that people reading the gospels would have expected to have personally heard about everything mentioned has got to be one of the weakest. ---
**Author:** ![Lightsaber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Lightsaber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightsaber)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-is-a-christian-fraud/431054/86 "2007-12-26T20:50:41Z")
Did you read the Carrier article I linked above, Rucksinator? The idea that Joseph would have been required to travel to Bethlehem isn’t ridiculous, despite how it sounds. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-is-a-christian-fraud/431054/87 "2007-12-26T20:59:32Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] “Pagan solstice festival” is exactly as meaningless a description as “Heathen winter holiday” or “Non-believer celebration held the third Tuesday in April.” [/quote] Well isn’t that pretty much the point? It’s non-Christian i.e. secular in that it had its origins in a pre-Christian culture that can loosly be labeled as “pagan”. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2007, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-is-a-christian-fraud/431054/88 "2007-12-27T12:34:19Z")
[QUOTE=astorian] Ridiculous. In 70 AD (there were still people around who’d have remembered (first hand or from stories their parents told) what happened. If a census had NEVER taken place, people who read the Gospel account would instantly have said, “Oh, bullshit!” Remember, by definition, anyone READING the Gospel account was literate. That means educated. The idea that the Gospel’s readers were gullible peasants is flat out wrong. Heck, the author of the Gospel of Luke was a Greek physician, NOT a Galileean fisherman. (Oh wait, I forgot, he was in on the fraud, right? Still, you’d THINK an educated Greek could think up a better fake story to fool the rubes, wouldn’t you?) Second, WHY do you think the authors felt the need to make up a phony story? Because educated Jews knew that the messiah was SUPPOSED to be born in Bethelehem, right? Well… wouldn’t such EDUCATED Jews also know dam nwell that there hadn’t been any census? The only people who might fall for such a phony account were witless, illiterate, superstitious sorts who 1. Couldn’t have read the Gospels in the first place. 2. Wouldn’t have known anything about the prophesies regarding Bethlehem and would have been perfectly happy to believe the messiah was from Nazareth. [/QUOTE] The story of Luke was written after the death of Jesus,most people could not read or write and went by what was told to them. The New Testemant wasn’t gathered together untill over 300 years later. There was many different versions and understanding of what was actual and what was not. Hence, the gathering of the writings and the destroying of others. It seems that Christianity spread more out of Jeruslem than in it, even if the Apostles John, and Matthew (and some of Peters) seemed to be the only witnesses. It took years before the Birth story was recorded and like people writing about Elvis and Jack Kennedy humans have a way of writing what sounds good. Since Mattew and Luke do not seem to balance out the same and as in many writers stories they tend to add a little to their own version. Because something is written in the Enquirer doesn’t make it true. It was no different then. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2007, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-is-a-christian-fraud/431054/89 "2007-12-27T16:39:52Z")
[QUOTE=Lightsaber] Did you read the Carrier article I linked above, Rucksinator? The idea that Joseph would have been required to travel to Bethlehem isn’t ridiculous, despite how it sounds. [/QUOTE] I just read it. I’m willing to upgrade the story from “ridiculous” to “possibly possible”. I still don’t buy it. ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-is-a-christian-fraud/431054/90 "2007-12-28T01:05:46Z")
Valteron, dude, pal, _believe_ me, I fully appreciate your efforts to bring some fresh air to the nauseatingly quadruple-vanilla mainstream lockstep atmosphere of this holiday (and I’m seriously considering just calling it “Decemberween” from now on), but at this point it’s like trying to dig up a mountain with a plastic spoon. Rock can be alternative. Sports can be alternative. News, politics, transportation, books, movies, heck, even _lifestyles_ can be alternative. The winter holiday, never. There will always be Bible thumping, frenzied overcommercialism, and 500 straight hours of soulless ear-bleeding dirges. Anyone who doesn’t know the truth isn’t interested in learning. Anyone who does know the truth is tired of hearing about it. Best you can do is go home, put on a movie, dust off the Playstation 2, and get away from it all for just a few hours a day until it’s over. (And yes, that’s pretty much what I did.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christmas-is-a-christian-fraud/431054.md?page=4)