# Christopher Columbus coming to America is the most significant thing to happen in our human species **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 24, 2023, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066 "2023-06-24T23:10:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/201 "2023-11-28T23:53:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Arawaks may have been peaceful- but if the civilizations that existed pre-columbus had been able to get there, they would have been conquered and enslaved, Well we don’t know that, plus it’s completely irrelevant. We don’t look at (war) crimes in the context of “Well, if they hadn’t done it, another group may have at some future time”. Why not just condemn what Columbus and the early voyagers did, end sentence? Why must we strain really hard to conceive of some “but…”? ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/202 "2023-11-29T00:09:34Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > Unless they had to get smarter to compete with those pesky little mammals. Well, they co-existed for about 135 million years without the pesky little mammals knocking them off of their perch. It took a nine-mile-wide asteroid to do that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/203 "2023-11-29T00:20:25Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > Where did you get the idea that there were only 2 civilizations in the Americas in 1492? How many do you think there were? Instead of calling me out, tell us what you think. Here is what I posted earlier, which you apparently didnt read- > [@DrDeth](#): > > The Moundbuilders or the Mississippian culture was in decline hundreds of years before DeSoto arrived. Same with the Hohokam and the The Ancestral Puebloans. So, pretty much there were no “civilizations” (in the sense of cities) left in what we now call America., altho certainly the **Five Nations** of the Iroquois Confederacy (and others- Wichita, etc) were quote organized and civilized- except without the “city” part. So, the only city building civilizations left were the Aztecs and the Mayans. Oh, and I missed the Incas, because we were talking about North America. I may have missed a couple others in South America, but in North America, the civilizations that build cities were either gone or just those two. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/204 "2023-11-29T00:24:09Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Why not just condemn what Columbus and the early voyagers did, end sentence? Why must we strain really hard to conceive of some “but…”? Because all the empires of the time were assholes. All of them. _It was a time of assholes._ Columbus didnt stand out in a sea of assholes. Context is important. Yes, Columbus and the Spanish, and the Portuguese were rat bastards. The mayas and Aztecs were evil rat bastards. Ok the brits were just bastards, since they werent so heavily into slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/205 "2023-11-29T01:14:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, the only city building civilizations left were the Aztecs and the Mayans. This is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/206 "2023-11-29T01:17:21Z")
I’ll give you hint of at least one more: > **[Purépecha Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pur%C3%A9pecha_Empire)** > > Matlatzinca > The Purépecha Empire, also known by the term Iréchikwa, was a polity in pre-Columbian Mexico. Its territory roughly covered the geographic area of the present-day Mexican state of Michoacán, as well as parts of Guanajuato, Guerrero, and Jalisco. At the time of the Spanish conquest, it was the second-largest state in Mesoamerica. The state is also known as the Tarascan Empire, an exonym often considered pejorative by the Purépecha people. > The empire was founded in the early 14th cent... ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/207 "2023-11-29T03:27:14Z")
Yes, but some groups of dinosaurs were declining before the asteroid hit, due to climate change, competition, sea level fluctuation, and volcanic activity. Some groups of mammals were getting more advanced and diversifying, though they were still mostly small, nocturnal insectivores. Primitive cats, dogs, primates, and others evolved before the asteroid hit. Dinos were still King of the Hill, but their world was becoming more competitive. Competition and environmental change spur evolution. It was time for them to adapt or perish. Fish, or cut bait. Shit, or get off the pot. I don’t think the non-avian dinosaurs would have relinquished their crown without a fight. They had to evolve or die. They had to survive or go extinct. Some obvious pathways for them to evolve and continue their dominance would be to gain more intelligence, become more social, and perhaps even become fully warm-blooded. So, I think it’s fair to say that mammals were becoming more competitive with dinos, and that probably would have continued if the bolide collision didn’t occur. Both dinosaurs and mammals would have continued to evolve. One thing is certain, our world today would have been much different if that asteroid missed hitting our planet 66 million years ago. For one thing, I don’t believe we humans would have evolved into existence at all. And, if we didn’t exist, we wouldn’t be facing the Holocene extinction today. Frankly, our biosphere would have been better off without us. So, on the one hand, I’m happy the asteroid hit our planet. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be here to experience the hedonistic qualia you and I experience from birth to death. But, on the other hand, I feel guilty that my species really fucked things up for us and the rest of the species on Earth. Maybe the next dominant species will do a better job. It can’t do much worse. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/208 "2023-11-29T04:39:47Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > I’ll give you hint of at least one more: > > [Purépecha Empire - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pur%C3%A9pecha_Empire) So, instead of listing others, you give one, then say " > [@Chingon](#): > > This is incorrect. This is not a contest. If you have additional information, share it. Yes, the Purépecha Empire were very late foes of the Aztecs, coming into their height just about in time to ally with the Spanish against their foes. Their capital was mostly a ceremonial center, with a population not even 1/10th the size of the Aztec capital. But still it was certainly a civilization, just one little is known about, so that’s good, and thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/209 "2023-11-29T04:52:48Z")
It presumptuous of humanoids to think the only reason we successfully evolved, grew more intelligence and populated, ad nauseum, was our own human-ness. So many other things happened that changed how we evolved to where we came to the place we are now. Other species dying, weather, ice ages, earthquakes and other disasters. Disease. The plague alone changed things significantly. I can’t see Columbus as all that important. I mean cool we got to the Americas. Humans were already here. Who’s to say what they would’ve done had European exploration not happened til way later? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/210 "2023-11-29T13:14:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > to ally with the Spanish against their foes. Sounds like you’re possibly confused again. What you’re calling “the Aztecs” had fallen before Purépecha contact with Spain. Maybe you’re thinking about the Tlaxcalans? ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/211 "2023-11-29T14:07:34Z")
In any case, to end the hijack, it’s an absurd simplification to claim that mesoamerica only consisted of “Aztecs” and Mayans in 1492. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/212 "2023-11-29T15:06:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because all the empires of the time were assholes. All of them. _It was a time of assholes._ Columbus didnt stand out in a sea of assholes. Context is important. Firstly, no-one has limited this to empires except you. You’ve limited it to empires because conveniently it means we don’t need to compare Columbus to the Arawaks who he was butchering. Secondly, no, it’s at least debatable whether Columbus was particularly evil, even by the standards of the time: > [@Washington Examiner](#): > > The enslavement of conquered peoples was nothing unusual in the Old World, regardless of who those people were or even the color of their skin. Even so, under most conventions of Columbus’s time, religious conversion was seen as an alternative for conquered peoples. Notably, King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, the Spanish monarchs who dispatched Columbus to the New World, specifically [instructed](https://books.google.com/books?id=3Dyhtkk4VQcC&pg=PT132&lpg=PT132&dq=columbus+abstain+from+doing+any+injury&source=bl&ots=u6FyjDsq8I&sig=ACfU3U3drpCQrmr156up5U0JltG_OgsXGA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjI17qPyYTqAhXYQzABHSf8DdcQ6AEwAnoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=columbus%20abstain%20from%20doing%20any%20injury&f=false) him to “abstain from doing” harm to the natives he encountered. > > Columbus did not heed this command. Instead, he established a proto-encomienda system rife with forced labor and rape. Whereas many other European explorers tried to work with natives or focused on converting them to Catholicism, Columbus immediately planned how he’d make the native Taino people “good servants” when he first encountered them in 1492. He made thousands of them servants, mutilating slaves and either gifting or selling women [and girls](https://books.google.com/books?id=fiYSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA435&lpg=PA435&dq=%22there+are+plenty+of+dealers+who+go+about+looking+for+girls%22&source=bl&ots=Eizg2DsX0i&sig=zYObDWUUiPc6C0jnns-bxj27iPM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCWoVChMI25mo4fCNyAIVxBg-Ch0HlQPy#v=onepage&q=%22there%20are%20plenty%20of%20dealers%20who%20go%20about%20looking%20for%20girls%22&f=false) into sexual slavery. The rumors of Columbus’s offenses against the natives, including torture, were so obscene that Ferdinand and Isabella ordered Francisco de Bobadilla to investigate his behavior in Hispanola. [source](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/christopher-columbus-was-pretty-evil-by-the-standards-of-his-own-time) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/213 "2023-11-29T15:52:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > still it was certainly a civilization, just one little is known about You also appear, if I understand you correctly, to be considering “civilization” to be only “the thing that is done in cities.” That does fit with the derivation; and does also seem to be the general use of the term. It’s not, however, synonymous with “culture covering a sizeable area with routine intercommunication and co-ordination of governing techniques.” And I’m not sure what the point is – because people don’t have cities it’s OK to conquer them, murder them, enslave them, force them into building cities? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/214 "2023-11-29T20:34:13Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > In any case, to end the hijack, it’s an absurd simplification to claim that mesoamerica only consisted of “Aztecs” and Mayans in 1492. Nor did I claim that. Look, if you have something to contribute about mesoamerican civilizations, do so. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > You also appear, if I understand you correctly, to be considering “civilization” to be only “the thing that is done in cities.” That does fit with the derivation; and does also seem to be the general use of the term. It’s not, however, synonymous with “culture covering a sizeable area with routine intercommunication and co-ordination of governing techniques.” No, like I said the Five Tribes confederation were civilized, despite having no cities. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And I’m not sure what the point is – because people don’t have cities it’s OK to conquer them, murder them, enslave them, force them into building cities? Hardly. It was in reply to > [@snowthx](#): > > It was a sad ending to the civilizations of the Americas, and i said 🤪 > [@DrDeth](#): > > I agree there. Read the whole thread. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/215 "2023-11-29T20:40:58Z")
The whole thread amply supports the claim that Christopher Columbus was an unusually evil man, even for his time, and that he was one of the causes of a collapse of civilization in the Americas, along with a massive amount of human suffering. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066/216 "2023-11-29T23:28:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > like I said the Five Tribes confederation were civilized, despite having no cities. Indeed. And that’s “are”, not “were”. They are very much still in existence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-coming-to-america-is-the-most-significant-thing-to-happen-in-our-human-species/986066.md?page=10)