# Christopher Columbus really was scum wasn't he?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [October 14, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271 "2014-10-14T04:50:11Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/1 "2014-10-14T04:50:11Z")
Vox does a takedown of Christopher Columbus: they list [9 reasons Christopher Columbus was a murderer, tyrant, and scoundrel](http://www.vox.com/2014/10/13/6957875/christopher-columbus-murderer-tyrant-scoundrel). It’s a little one sided. I mean sure, he “kidnapped a Carib woman and gave her to a crew member to rape.” And yes he did force Indians to collect gold for him on pain of death, resulting in untended fields, mass suicides, general misery and ultimately population collapse. But he was harsh with his own, though less so, delivering frequent whippings, having a cabin boy’s hand nailed at the place where some infraction was committed and cutting off ears and noses.
But he was a product of his time, right? Well, sorta but I maintain that competent administrators didn’t face [rebellions and mutinies](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2274/where-does-that-1492-ocean-blue-thing-about-columbus-come-from). Subsequently Spain sent a representative to investigate various rumors, who promptly had Columbus arrested and escorted back to Europe. Ever the drama queen, Columbus insisted on remaining in chains during the voyage, which apparently generated sufficient sympathy to keep him out of prison and even lead another voyage. I can imagine calling Jamestown’s John Smith a man of his time: I’m not so sure about Columbus.
I’ll leave it to someone else to assess his navigation (quite good, I understand) and ability to keep his crew in line during the first voyage. Columbus certainly wasn’t much of a scientist. Maybe we should celebrate [Amerigo Vespucci’s](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/951/why-was-america-named-after-amerigo-vespucci) birthday instead. Resource conquest isn’t something to be emulated, never mind incompetent resource conquest.
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### Author:  [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/2 "2014-10-14T06:12:52Z")
Just to nitpick that Vox piece:
> [@](#):
>
> **8) Settlers under Columbus sold 9- and 10-year-old girls into sexual slavery**
>
> This one he admitted himself in a letter to Doña Juana de la Torre, a friend of the Spanish queen. “There are now many merchants who go seeking for girls,” he wrote. “Nine or ten are now for sale; for women of all ages, there is a good price to be had.” (Bergreen, 312)
Their quote doesn’t say what their heading says.
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### Author:  [@The\_Holdsworth\_Effect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Holdsworth_Effect)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/3 "2014-10-14T07:41:14Z")
Never been able to figure out why he got all the credit- wasn’t the first, wasn’t where he thought he was, and went home without finding any gold. He also wasn’t Spanish, or even really Italian. Apparently, he could talk fast 😉 and spin a good yarn.
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### Author:  [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/4 "2014-10-14T07:43:43Z")
Of course he was scum…as was Andrew Jackson, General Sherman, General Sheridan. But good luck getting Jackson removed from the $20.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/5 "2014-10-14T08:41:03Z")
> [@voltaire](#):
>
> Just to nitpick that Vox piece:
> Their quote doesn’t say what their heading says.
Yeah that was blatantly misleading.
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### Author:  [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/6 "2014-10-14T09:38:35Z")
Columbus was scum.
I think that the fact that a large part of the US celebrates Columbus is distasteful at best and at worst representative of the moral laziness and self-centeredness that is present in the foreign policy.
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### Author:  [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/7 "2014-10-14T10:28:31Z")
> [@voltaire](#):
>
> Just to nitpick that Vox piece:
> Their quote doesn’t say what their heading says.
I’m not sure how it doesn’t. Are you saying that the quote just describes what the merchants are doing, and doesn’t necessarily imply that he himself had anything to do with it?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/8 "2014-10-14T10:50:38Z")
> [@Leaper](#):
>
> I’m not sure how it doesn’t. Are you saying that the quote just describes what the merchants are doing, and doesn’t necessarily imply that he himself had anything to do with it?
the quote seems to be saying that 9 or 10 girls (the number of girls) are for sale, not 9- or 10-year-old girls (the age of the girls) which is the title
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### Author:  [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/9 "2014-10-14T10:54:49Z")
> [@Leaper](#):
>
> I’m not sure how it doesn’t. Are you saying that the quote just describes what the merchants are doing, and doesn’t necessarily imply that he himself had anything to do with it?
The heading mentions “9- and 10-year-old girls.”
The quote mentions nine or ten girls being for sale - it says nothing of their age.
ETA: Ninja’d!
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### Author:  [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/10 "2014-10-14T11:54:48Z")
> [@The\_Holdsworth\_Effect](#):
>
> He also wasn’t Spanish, or even really Italian.
What do you mean not really Italian? Because Italy wasn’t unified at that point (so he was Genoese, not Italian), or is there some other rationale here?
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### Author:  [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/11 "2014-10-14T12:18:06Z")
“If you can remember the 1490’s, it means you weren’t really there.”
- Grace Slick
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### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/12 "2014-10-14T12:38:45Z")
Mal: It’s my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of 'em was one kinda sombitch or another.
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### Author:  [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/13 "2014-10-14T12:47:38Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#):
>
> Of course he was scum…as was Andrew Jackson, General Sherman, General Sheridan. But good luck getting Jackson removed from the $20.
Andrew Jackson? Wasn’t he that guy who went around killing people in duels?
_Reads Wikipedia_
Jesus Christ.
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/14 "2014-10-14T12:51:39Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#):
>
> What do you mean not really Italian? Because Italy wasn’t unified at that point (so he was Genoese, not Italian), or is there some other rationale here?
There have apparently been claims that Columbus wasn’t really Italian, despite our knowledge of where he was supposed to be born. I haven’t followed this up in detail, but the ones pushing this point of view say that he apparently didn’t write Italian as well as other languages, and other such arguments, suggesting that he wasn’t truthful about his background
I haven’t read deeply about Columbus, but Samuel Elliot Morrison wrote an impressive bio about him. He was an accomplished guy – getting funding and leading a recalcitrant crew on three ships into the unknown is an impressive undertaking. But the more I learn about the guy, the less I like him. First it was the way he treated the natives, which I first encountered in Howard Zinn, then the way he screwed up the colonies and his later expeditions, and finally the way he treated his own crews. (The way he cheated the sailor who first spotted land out of his promised bounty is particularly cheap and petty).
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/15 "2014-10-14T13:05:38Z")
Yeah, you seldom see a monument in the public square to “Jack Doe – nicest human being we ever knew”. It’s usually someone who caused trouble and just so happens his side won. Still, the Admiral was a fine mariner (look, it’s not his fault someone plopped in an entirely different continent where he expected Indonesia) but a total bastard as a commander and a bastard and a trainwreck as a conqueror.
Dia de la Raza/Columbus Day seemed to me to have been come up with by the Western-educated, European-descended cultural leaders in the Americas as part of a narrative (that was considered perfectly valid in 1892) of the extension of Western Christian Civilization to this New World where they started New Nations that took only the best of Old Europe, and the Columbus voyages were the obvious starting point.
There seems to have been always a divergence between Anglo America and Latin America as to how to look at it, the LatAm elites went for the “Dia de la Raza” mythos about the fusion of the cultures (of course with Spanish/Portugese-speaking Christianity being the best part of it) into one “raza” (so please, indigenous peoples, no vindicating rights, we white criollo elites are the same “raza” as you); Anglos went with their beloved archetype of the bold pioneering individual blazing the trail and let’s not ask questions as to how many civilian casualties that involved.
In both cases, Columbus’ rollicking tale of adventure is also more presentable, once sanitized, than the actual brutal conquest, discussion of which involved a lot of coughing and mumbling. The Latin Americans, especially those with large native populations and the former civilizational centers at Mexico and Peru, began reconsidering it pretty early.
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### Author:  [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/16 "2014-10-14T13:44:43Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#):
>
> . Still, the Admiral was a fine mariner (look, it’s not his fault someone plopped in an entirely different continent where he expected Indonesia)
And why did he expect to find indonesia there? Because he’d persuaded himself the planet was much smaller than it really was, more than 1500 years after various much smarter people had worked out a reasonable approximation of the actual size. If the Americas hadn’t been there his fine marine skills would have killed every man on the expedition.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/17 "2014-10-14T14:07:41Z")
There’s a lot to be said for luck.
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### Author:  [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/18 "2014-10-14T14:10:52Z")
> [@mr.jp](#):
>
> I think that the fact that a large part of the US celebrates Columbus is distasteful at best and at worst representative of the moral laziness and self-centeredness that is present in the foreign policy.
Psst . . . It isn’t just the US. There’s a nation in South America named after the guy.
Yeah, Columbus was a bastard. It feels good to pat ourselves on the back that we aren’t like scum from back then. We’re modern and compassionate and considerate, every one of us.
But just the same, I’m not about to sell everything that I own, donate it to American Indians, and move back to Europe. So I guess I’m not so considerate, after all.
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### Author:  [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/19 "2014-10-14T14:36:31Z")
If Columbus did not discover the Americas someone else would have in 50-60 years I am sure.
Everything that followed would basically be the same. Just different names and dates.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/20 "2014-10-14T14:37:17Z")
> [@Leaper](#):
>
> I’m not sure how it doesn’t. Are you saying that the quote just describes what the merchants are doing, and doesn’t necessarily imply that he himself had anything to do with it?
Read the quote:
_There are now many merchants who go seeking for girls. Nine or ten are now for sale; for women of all ages, there is a good price to be had._
How many girls are for sale?
What are their ages?
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