# Christopher Columbus really was scum wasn't he? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 14, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271 "2014-10-14T04:50:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/81 "2014-10-15T13:47:01Z")
How come we don’t have Columbo Day? That guy was a crime-solving hero! ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/82 "2014-10-15T14:23:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Sure, like Spiny Norman is all innocent… > > Columbus _was_ scum, and I’m all in favour of not celebrating any holidays in his honour. I’d be a bit aghast of South Africa still celebrated [Van Riebeeck Day](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founders_Day_%28South_Africa%29), or [Kruger Day](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroes%27_Day_%28South_Africa%29) or [We Killed A Bunch Of Zulus Because Jesus Totally Loves Whites Best Day](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_the_Vow) (That … may not be the actual name of the holiday) Well, to be fair, if your ancestors had fought a battle where 470 of you defeated 10,000 of the other side, and only three of your side even _wounded_ while 3000 of the enemy bought the farm, you might think that deserved a day on the calendar. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/83 "2014-10-15T14:29:18Z")
What was the quote? “Great men are rarely good men” Or something like that? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/84 "2014-10-15T15:00:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The fashion back then was to Latinate names…so Columbus rather than Columbo, Calvinus rather than the French Cauvin, Copenicus rather than the Polish Kopernik, etc. Yeah, but nobody says “Calvinus”. I’ve never seen it written that way anywhere. Nor, for that matter, do I see latinized names for any other explorer. I thought we ought to be using “Cauvin”, anyway. “Calvin” seems an imposition. And, being of Polish ancestry, I prefer Mikolai\* Kopernik to Nicjolas Copernicus. - That’s an “l” with a diagonal slash through it. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/85 "2014-10-15T15:02:40Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > What was the quote? > > “Great men are rarely good men” Or something like that? How great was he? Atrocities aside (and he was a god-awful human being), he should really be known for being bailed out by dumb luck after setting sail with very, very bad information. He thought the world was much smaller than it actually was, despite the fact that a whole bunch of people knew otherwise. How absurd is it that we credit him with discovering a new world, when _he_ didn’t even believe that at any point in his life? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/86 "2014-10-15T15:05:28Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > He thought the world was much smaller than it actually was, despite the fact that a whole bunch of people knew otherwise. Based on an out-of-context biblical verse, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/87 "2014-10-15T15:08:00Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Based on an out-of-context biblical verse, apparently. Even better. He was the 15th Century’s version of a creationist. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/88 "2014-10-15T15:10:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The Inca society was brutally regimented. It was caste oriented, very rigidly hierarchical, and had zero room for upward mobility. If you were born a farmer, you were a farmer for life, and so were your kids. There were far fewer freedoms than even in ancient Egypt. Rome was a hotbed of liberty in comparison. The contemporary Spanish conquerors were quite impressed by the Inca civilization, commenting (IIRC) on how well nourished and healthy people were, on how everyone had work, and on how the crime rates and general social dysfunction were quite low. It shouldn’t be surprising that the Incas were well nourished- they’re right next door to one of the world’s richest marine fisheries, South America was home to a great diversity of crops (including some super-productive ones), and they had a well organized transportation network and government. Given all that, I’m not sure the lack of liberty much mattered. People generally prefer sausages to freedom, and I suspect most people would prefer to live under a prosperous dictatorship than in a poor democracy. For what it’s worth, a number of 20th century South American Marxists saw the Incas as kind of a premodern model. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/89 "2014-10-15T15:26:24Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Based on an out-of-context biblical verse, apparently. cite? I’ve never heard this story. Which verse would that be? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/90 "2014-10-15T16:12:02Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > cite? I’ve never heard this story. Which verse would that be? This one, from the deuterocanonical Book of Esdras. Here’s the commentary from the Oxford Annotated NRSV: "‘On the third day thou didst command the waters to be gathered together in the seventh part of the earth; six parts thou didst dry up and keep so that some of them might be planted and cultivated and be of service before thee.’ (2 Esdras 6:42) “The above passage is taken from the Apocrypha (2 Esdras 6:42) and the words are supposed to be the words of Ezra. However these words were written much later, and are an inaccurate comment on the Genesis story of creation. But in an ironic twist, this erroneous passage came to play two vital roles in the enterprise that resulted in Christopher Columbus discovering America. Along with many others at that time, Columbus assumed that the words formed part of the canon of Scripture, and the passage led him to reason that, if only one seventh of the earth’s surface is covered with water, the ocean between the west coast of Europe and the east coast of Asia could be no great width, and might be navigated in a few days with a fair wind. As well as providing the personal encouragement Columbus needed, this quote also played a significant part in the decision by Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain to provide the necessary financial support for the voyage.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/91 "2014-10-15T16:12:41Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Yeah, but nobody says “Calvinus”. I’ve never seen it written that way anywhere. Nor, for that matter, do I see latinized names for any other explorer. > > I thought we ought to be using “Cauvin”, anyway. “Calvin” seems an imposition. And, being of Polish ancestry, I prefer Mikolai\* Kopernik to Nicjolas Copernicus. > > - That’s an “l” with a diagonal slash through it. Here you go: Mikołaj (and note the “j” at the end.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/92 "2014-10-15T16:58:26Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Yeah, but nobody says “Calvinus”. I’ve never seen it written that way anywhere. Nor, for that matter, do I see latinized names for any other explorer. You see [Vespucci](https://archive.org/details/americusvespucc00harrgoog) latinized quite often. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/93 "2014-10-15T18:15:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You see [Vespucci](https://archive.org/details/americusvespucc00harrgoog) latinized quite often. I argue with the “quite often”. Your cite is from 1895. I’ve never seen it latinized in anything else I’ve seen. Certainly not from the 20th or 2q1st century. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/94 "2014-10-17T18:17:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Was that in Vinland or just in Greenland? Well, the Wikipedia page on Vinland includes this passage from the Saga of Erik the Red: > [@](#): > > The teller of this saga is uncertain whether the explorers remain here over the next winter (said to be very mild) or for only a few weeks of summer. One morning they see nine hide boats; the local people (Skraelings) examine the Norse ships and depart in peace. Later a much larger flotilla of boats arrives, and trade commences (Karlsefni forbids the sale of weapons). One day, the local traders are frightened by the sudden arrival of the Greenlanders’ bull, and they stay away for three weeks. They then attack in force, but the explorers manage to survive with only minor casualties by retreating inland to a defensive position a short distance from their camp. Pregnancy slows Freydis down, so she picks up the sword of a fallen companion and brandishes it against her bare breast, scaring the attackers into withdrawal. One of the local people picks up an iron axe, tries it, and throws it away. The explorers subsequently abandon the southern camp and sail back to Straumsfjord, killing five natives they encounter on the way, lying asleep in hide sacks. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/95 "2014-10-18T06:30:58Z")
> [@Recusant](#): > > Even by the standards of his time, the man was a bastard. But that doesn’t change his accomplishments. What accomplishments? Being a very lucky crackpot? ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/96 "2014-10-18T21:24:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > On the other hand, is changing the name of the holiday from Columbus Day to Indigenous People’s Day _that_ big of a sacrifice? What about all of the horrific acts cruelty that Indigenous People committed? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/97 "2014-10-18T21:39:05Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > What about all of the horrific acts cruelty that Indigenous People committed? I think **czarcasm** meant that we should have human sacrifice instead of Columbus day. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/98 "2014-10-18T22:22:42Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Eh, Columbus may have been the “father” of the trans-Atlantic slave trade but the New World was bound to be opened to Europe soon enough. Why? Because there was already a thriving slave trade leaving Portugal, heading to Africa and back up. And, the best route wasn’t directly down the coast but to swing wide in the Atlantic (winds and currents) around Africa’s northwest coast and come back in. In retrospect, this route took the slave traders surprisingly close to Brazil’s coast (in a relative sense). It’s figured that, if it wasn’t Columbus, some Portuguese trader was going to find Brazil soon enough be it via storm or poor navigation. Actually, Pedro Cabral discovered Brazil in 1500 independently of Columbus while sailing far to the west en route to India by circling Africa.\* So if Columbus had never existed, it would have delayed the discovery of the Americas by a whopping 8 years. There were so many European ships sailing about at that time that the discovery of the Americas was inevitable. \*There is some speculation that Cabral might have sailed so far west because he thought there might be land there due to Columbus’s voyage, but if so it’s still likely Brazil would have been discovered sooner rather than later. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/99 "2014-10-18T22:52:01Z")
I’ve always thought of Columbus as being rather like Donald Trump, but with a dollop or two of actual imagination and foresight added. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/100 "2014-10-18T23:39:17Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Actually, Pedro Cabral discovered Brazil in 1500 independently of Columbus while sailing far to the west en route to India by circling Africa.\* So if Columbus had never existed, it would have delayed the discovery of the Americas by a whopping 8 years. There were so many European ships sailing about at that time that the discovery of the Americas was inevitable. > > \*There is some speculation that Cabral might have sailed so far west because he thought there might be land there due to Columbus’s voyage, but if so it’s still likely Brazil would have been discovered sooner rather than later. True, but oddly enough it was not until the early 1600s that Europeans “discovered” Australia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271.md?page=6)