# Christopher Columbus really was scum wasn't he? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 14, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271 "2014-10-14T04:50:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/101 "2014-10-19T00:13:39Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > What accomplishments? Being a very lucky crackpot? Well, he has his own Day named after him, so there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/102 "2014-10-19T00:18:47Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Actually, Pedro Cabral discovered Brazil in 1500 independently of Columbus while sailing far to the west en route to India by circling Africa.\* So if Columbus had never existed, it would have delayed the discovery of the Americas by a whopping 8 years. There were so many European ships sailing about at that time that the discovery of the Americas was inevitable. Probably, but would the Spanish have made out as well? That’s an 8 year head start in colonization, and, by the time Cabral discovered Brazil, Spain had already gotten papal blessing, had managed a settlement of up to a thousand people in Hispanola, had managed to start suppressing the Taino, and were starting to settle Venezuela. So without Columbus, they would hardly have been in such a good position to exploit the resources of the Americas, and it’s possible the Portuguese could have shut them out, or at least slowed them down enough so that Central and South America would have been more Portuguese and less Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/103 "2014-10-19T00:19:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > True, but oddly enough it was not until the early 1600s that Europeans “discovered” Australia. Australia wasn’t on the way to anywhere else that Europeans knew about or were interested in going to. They weren’t just randomly sailing around (mostly). Also, in the Atlantic, currents and [winds in equatorial latitudes](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Map_prevailing_winds_on_earth.png) carry ships westward from Europe and Africa towards the Americas. If there are many ships sailing far out in the Atlantic trying to get from Europe to Asia by rounding Africa, eventually a storm is bound to carry one across. In contrast, in the Indian Ocean prevailing winds carry you away from Australia (unless you are very far south). It’s much less likely that a ship sailing around Africa toward India or China will end up in Australia if it goes off course. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/104 "2014-10-19T00:25:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Probably, but would the Spanish have made out as well? That’s an 8 year head start in colonization, and, by the time Cabral discovered Brazil, Spain had already gotten papal blessing, had managed a settlement of up to a thousand people in Hispanola, had managed to start suppressing the Taino, and were starting to settle Venezuela. So without Columbus, they would hardly have been in such a good position to exploit the resources of the Americas, and it’s possible the Portuguese could have shut them out, or at least slowed them down enough so that Central and South America would have been more Portuguese and less Spanish. Certainly Columbus’s voyage was critical in determining where the initial colonization took place, and that it was by the Spanish instead of somebody else. My point is that even without Columbus _somebody_ would have stumbled on the Americas pretty soon. John Cabot (Giovanni Caboto), sailing for England, re-discovered Newfoundland in 1497. Now he may have been inspired by and been able to get funding due to Columbus’s success, but he followed an entirely independent route. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/105 "2014-10-19T01:00:58Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Australia wasn’t on the way to anywhere else that Europeans knew about or were interested in going to. They weren’t just randomly sailing around (mostly). Also, in the Atlantic, currents and [winds in equatorial latitudes](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Map_prevailing_winds_on_earth.png) carry ships westward from Europe and Africa towards the Americas. If there are many ships sailing far out in the Atlantic trying to get from Europe to Asia by rounding Africa, eventually a storm is bound to carry one across. In contrast, in the Indian Ocean prevailing winds carry you away from Australia (unless you are very far south). It’s much less likely that a ship sailing around Africa toward India or China will end up in Australia if it goes off course. [Magellan just barely missed it.](http://mrgrayhistory.wikispaces.com/UNIT+13+-+THE+AGE+OF+EXPLORATION) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/106 "2014-10-19T03:44:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [Magellan just barely missed it.](http://mrgrayhistory.wikispaces.com/UNIT+13+-+THE+AGE+OF+EXPLORATION) Magellan didn’t come within 3,000 miles of Australia, since he was killed in the Philippines before returning to Spain. And that’s not a very accurate map. On the [return trip](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Magellan_Elcano_Circumnavigation-fr.svg), Elcano, who was then in charge of the expedition, turned westward to the north of Timor, which is over 400 miles north of Australia. I don’t think that qualifies as “barely missed.” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/107 "2014-10-19T04:04:44Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Actually, Pedro Cabral discovered Brazil in 1500 independently of Columbus while sailing far to the west en route to India by circling Africa.\* So if Columbus had never existed, it would have delayed the discovery of the Americas by a whopping 8 years. Sheesh. Ok, what’s the case for the defense? Was Cristóbal Colón truly an awesome navigator, or just a competent one? I understand that the [Pinzon brothers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinz%C3%B3n_brothers) deserve some of the credit for the voyage’s completion and even launch, future interminable lawsuits notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/108 "2014-10-19T06:47:25Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Spaniards (who, after all, had just managed to kick heathens out of Ibera) Iberia, or the Iberian Peninsula, although both are inexact, as they include Portugal and it’s not the Portuguese you’re talking about (although they had certainly done their share of Muslim ass-kicking). > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The [Vallolidad Debate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valladolid_debate) pitted Bartolome de las Casas against a less famous “Humanist” Valladolid, please. It’s right there in the link. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > What’s the quotes for? And if anything, las Casas was less famous that Sepulvada Sepúlveda: I’m not going to ask for the diacritic, but please, try to get the spelling right. And **MfM** , make up your mind: either you use diacritics or you don’t! (It’s Pinzón, if you’re going to use them). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/109 "2014-10-19T07:36:19Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Ok, what’s the case for the defense? Was Cristóbal Colón truly an awesome navigator, or just a competent one? Samuel Eliot Morison, in _Admiral of the Ocean Sea_, considered Columbus to be an exceptional navigator. However, I don’t think he was a particularly good sailor, since he lost a number of ships, including the _Santa Maria_ basically through carelessness. Also on the plus side, I don’t think it can be disputed that Columbus was exceptionally brave. Pushing his crew into the unknown was no mean feat. (On the other hand, if he hadn’t been successful, one might call it foolhardiness.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271/110 "2014-10-19T07:42:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Hmm. I thought one of the pieces of evidence that he was Spanish instead of Italian is that his written records, in Spanish, were “too good” for someone who was not actually Spanish. Columbus’s Spanish wasn’t very good. He learned Portuguese before he learned Spanish. As I noted in my [Staff Report on the origin of the term “Indian” for Native Americans](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1966/does-indian-derive-from-columbuss-description-of-native-americans-as-una-gente-in-dios): > [@](#): > > According to Samuel Eliot Morison’s Admiral of the Ocean Sea, “he wrote Castilian with Portuguese spellings, especially in the vowels, which prove he spoke Portuguese before he learned Castilian.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/christopher-columbus-really-was-scum-wasnt-he/701271.md?page=5)