# Churchill's Epaulet Insignia at Yalta?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [February 22, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346 "2018-02-22T17:25:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/1 "2018-02-22T17:25:51Z")
I have examined the poor quality photo images available on the Internet and have been unable to determine what military insignia Winston Churchill wore on his overcoat in the famous photos of him, Roosevelt, and Stalin at the Yalta conference\*\*.
Anything on his right shoulder seems to be overexposed in most of the photos. His left shoulder in many photos seems to have some sort of insignia. This photo appears to show a couple of bright “bumps” (buttons? stars?) on each shoulder epaulet.
[Yalta photo](https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/winston-churchill-franklin-roosevelt-and-joseph-stalin-news-photo/515298948#/winston-churchill-franklin-roosevelt-and-joseph-stalin-together-after-picture-id515298948)
I have read that he generally displayed one of two ranks during WWII – either a Regiment Colonel of the 4th Hussars or an Air Force Air Commodore. But researching the insignia related to these titles hasn’t helped.
[Churchill military ranks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill#Honorary_military_appointments)
Here is a great video: [Yalta video](https://www.winstonchurchill.org/the-life-of-churchill/war-leader/yalta-1945/)
Here is a photo of him wearing shoulder boards for the Air Commodore title: [Churchill Air Commodore](http://www.aviationartcards.com/html/churchill_in_uniform_-cbc57-.html)
There is the possibility of course that his epaulets on his overcoat are not military insignia at all. But I’ve never seen a two button epaulet.
\*\*Why am I asking about this? I am painting pewter figurines of Churchill, Roosevelt, and Stalin sitting in their chairs at Yalta and I want to be as accurate as possible (though I’m not going to try and duplicate the Persian rugs under their chairs. 🙂 )
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### Author:  [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/2 "2018-02-22T18:28:29Z")
Crombie, the manufacturer of the British Warm overcoat that Churchill was wearing at Yalta, has a bit about it on their site:
[https://www.crombie.co.uk/crombie-chronicle/churchill-the-british-warm/](https://www.crombie.co.uk/crombie-chronicle/churchill-the-british-warm/)
It mentions a few other places where he wore the same one, so maybe you can find better photographs of those occasions?
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### Author:  [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/3 "2018-02-22T18:41:25Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#):
>
> Crombie, the manufacturer of the British Warm overcoat that Churchill was wearing at Yalta, has a bit about it on their site:
>
> [https://www.crombie.co.uk/crombie-chronicle/churchill-the-british-warm/](https://www.crombie.co.uk/crombie-chronicle/churchill-the-british-warm/)
>
> It mentions a few other places where he wore the same one, so maybe you can find better photographs of those occasions?
Aha. A good lead. Thanks!
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/4 "2018-02-22T23:25:44Z")
Looks like he wore an RAF uniform indoors at least part of the time at Yalta: [http://ww2today.com/5th-february-1945-churchill-roosevelt-and-stalin-meet-at-yalta](http://ww2today.com/5th-february-1945-churchill-roosevelt-and-stalin-meet-at-yalta)
It’s a little clearer here: [Churchill enters the Livadia Palace for the Yalta Conference, Feb. 8,... News Photo - Getty Images](https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/churchill-enters-the-livadia-palace-for-the-yalta-news-photo/615316246)
None of these look like what he wore on his epaulettes; has the RAF changed its insignia since 1945?: [RAF officer ranks - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_officer_ranks)
If it’s not RAF uniform, it might be Royal Army uniform, in which case I think Churchill could be displaying the crown-and-two-pips of a Royal Army colonel: [British Army officer rank insignia - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_officer_rank_insignia)
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### Author:  [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)
#### Post date: [February 22, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/5 "2018-02-22T23:38:49Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#):
>
> If it’s not RAF uniform, it might be Royal Army uniform, in which case I think Churchill could be displaying the crown-and-two-pips of a Royal Army colonel: [British Army officer rank insignia - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_officer_rank_insignia)
Excuse the pedantry, but it’s not the Royal Army. It’s the British Army. It’s the Royal Navy, due to historical funding reasons, and the RAF just went with the “Royal” when it became its own branch during WWI.
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### Author:  [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/6 "2018-02-23T01:00:17Z")
At the time, Church was the regimental colonel of the 4th Queens Own Hussars, so an army uniform with colonel’s insignia is probably a good guess.
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### Author:  [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/7 "2018-02-23T02:09:14Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#):
>
> Excuse the pedantry, but it’s not the Royal Army. It’s the British Army.
Here in America, we just call 'em _Redcoats_.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/8 "2018-02-23T16:32:03Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#):
>
> Excuse the pedantry, but it’s not the Royal Army. It’s the British Army. It’s the Royal Navy, due to historical funding reasons, and the RAF just went with the “Royal” when it became its own branch during WWI.
Point taken, and I knew that. Thanks.
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### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/9 "2018-02-23T16:46:37Z")
[Here](https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7620/16868403600_9750268881_o.jpg)is a decent photo of Churchill in uniform at Yalta with his coat off. It looks like a Colonel’s badge with a crown and two crosses.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/10 "2018-02-23T16:48:57Z")
Pips, not crosses: [Colonel (United Kingdom) - Wikiwand](http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Colonel_(United_Kingdom))
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### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/11 "2018-02-23T17:00:25Z")
[WinstonChurchill.org](http://WinstonChurchill.org) says the uniform was Honorary Colonel, 4th/5th (Cinque Ports) Battalion, The Royal Sussex Regiment
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### Author:  [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/12 "2018-02-23T17:04:18Z")
From here:
> **[Riddles, Mysteries, Enigamas - Churchill’s Uniforms](https://winstonchurchill.org/publications/finest-hour/finest-hour-129/riddles-mysteries-enigamas-churchills-uniforms/)**
>
> Finest Hour 129, Winter 2005-06 Page 12 Riddles, Mysteries, Enigamas – Churchill’s Uniforms Q: I am writing an article about Winston Churchill and require confirmation of the uniforms in which \[…\]
> [@](#):
>
> He wore two different Army uniforms. One was that of Colonel, 4th Queen’s Own Hussars; this was his original regiment in which he was commissioned from 1895 till 1899 (being appointed Colonel of the Regiment in 1941). The other Army uniform was that of Honorary Colonel, 4th/5th (Cinque Ports) Battalion, The Royal Sussex Regiment. He received this honorary appointment in 1941, soon after becoming Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports.
>
> You can tell the difference between the two Army uniforms by their cap-badges and collar badges. The 4th Hussars’ cap-badges are gold-coloured and show a circular design surrounding the number IV, with a crown above. He wore this uniform in Egypt and Italy, also in Paris in 1947 when he was presented with the Médaille Militaire.
>
> The cap-badge of 4th/5th Royal Sussex was larger: a silver cross with a plume behind; collar badges were similar, but in black metal. This uniform was worn prominently at Yalta, the Rhine Crossing, Berlin, Potsdam, and briefly in Italy.
Many of the photos I have found of Churchill in late 1945 shows him wearing a peaked cap adorned with the emblem of the Royal Sussex 4th Battalion.
> **[Badges - Royal Sussex](https://www.royalsussex.org.uk/the-regiment/badges/)**
>
> The Royal Sussex Living History Group recreating The Royal Sussex Regiment of the Victorian & WW1 eras.
Churchill photo here: [http://www.culture24.org.uk/am69952](http://www.culture24.org.uk/am69952)
Alas, this does not solve my epaulet question. The pewter figurines have a couple of bumps. So I’ll just paint those bumps gold and call it a day.
I would have thought this question would have been easier to solve though. The Internet has failed me.
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### Author:  [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/13 "2018-02-23T17:06:45Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> [Here](https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7620/16868403600_9750268881_o.jpg)is a decent photo of Churchill in uniform at Yalta with his coat off. It looks like a Colonel’s badge with a crown and two crosses.
That’s a great photo. I wonder if his overcoat had the same epaulets.
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### Author:  [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/14 "2018-02-23T17:11:05Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#):
>
> Pips, not crosses: [Colonel (United Kingdom) - Wikiwand](http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Colonel_(United_Kingdom))
What does a pip on an epaulet look like?
Is it simply a gold colored … um … pip? Do they look like what Prince William has on his epaulets for his marriage uniform?
[http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Kate+Middleton/Royal+Wedding+2/-ZWvL1fdwg2](http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Kate+Middleton/Royal+Wedding+2/-ZWvL1fdwg2)
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### Author:  [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/15 "2018-02-23T17:14:52Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#):
>
> Looks like he wore an RAF uniform indoors at least part of the time at Yalta: [http://ww2today.com/5th-february-1945-churchill-roosevelt-and-stalin-meet-at-yalta](http://ww2today.com/5th-february-1945-churchill-roosevelt-and-stalin-meet-at-yalta)
>
> It’s a little clearer here: [Churchill enters the Livadia Palace for the Yalta Conference, Feb. 8,... News Photo - Getty Images](https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/churchill-enters-the-livadia-palace-for-the-yalta-news-photo/615316246)
That Getty photo with him removing his overcoat shows the overcoat “pips” nicely. I wish I had the magic CSI computer program that resolves magnified pixels into something recognizable. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/16 "2018-02-23T17:28:12Z")
nm
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/17 "2018-02-23T17:31:02Z")
> [@Algernon](#):
>
> What does a pip on an epaulet look like?
>
> Is it simply a gold colored … um … pip? Do they look like what Prince William has on his epaulets for his marriage uniform?
> [http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Kate+Middleton/Royal+Wedding+2/-ZWvL1fdwg2](http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Kate+Middleton/Royal+Wedding+2/-ZWvL1fdwg2)
Yes. Prince William wore his uniform as a colonel of the Irish Guards that day. See “Groom and best man” here: [Wedding of Prince William and Catherine Middleton - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_of_Prince_William_and_Catherine_Middleton#Bridal_party)
Fixed the link from post 10: [Colonel (United Kingdom) - Wikiwand](http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Colonel_(United_Kingdom))
According to that Wiki article, the pips are miniature “Bath Stars”: [Order of the Bath - Wikiwand](http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Order_of_the_Bath)
Here are some better pics of British uniform pips:
[ ](http://britishmilitarybadges.e2ecdn.co.uk/Products/0aayzhghjgfjhf9999726_7.jpg?w=547&h=547&quality=85&scale=canvas)
[ ](https://n7.alamy.com/zooms/6560b04b2050472a957bfbfe5f7619d7/rear-view-of-the-shoulder-of-a-man-wearing-the-uniform-of-a-ww2-british-ewh17k.jpg)
[http://cdn3.volusion.com/yrcrx.thzkt/v/vspfiles/photos/CRS13M-2.jpg](http://cdn3.volusion.com/yrcrx.thzkt/v/vspfiles/photos/CRS13M-2.jpg)
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### Author:  [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/18 "2018-02-23T17:37:06Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#):
>
> Yes. Prince William wore his uniform as a colonel of the Irish Guards that day. See “Groom and best man” here: [Wedding of Prince William and Catherine Middleton - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_of_Prince_William_and_Catherine_Middleton#Bridal_party)
>
> Fixed the link from post 10: [Colonel (United Kingdom) - Wikiwand](http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Colonel_(United_Kingdom))
>
> According to that Wiki article, the pips are miniature “Bath Stars”: [Order of the Bath - Wikiwand](http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Order_of_the_Bath)
>
> Here are some better pics of British uniform pips:
>
> [http://britishmilitarybadges.e2ecdn.co.uk/Products/0aayzhghjgfjhf9999726\_7.jpg?w=547&h=547&quality=85&scale=canvas](http://britishmilitarybadges.e2ecdn.co.uk/Products/0aayzhghjgfjhf9999726_7.jpg?w=547&h=547&quality=85&scale=canvas)
> [http://n7.alamy.com/zooms/6560b04b2050472a957bfbfe5f7619d7/rear-view-of-the-shoulder-of-a-man-wearing-the-uniform-of-a-ww2-british-ewh17k.jpg](http://n7.alamy.com/zooms/6560b04b2050472a957bfbfe5f7619d7/rear-view-of-the-shoulder-of-a-man-wearing-the-uniform-of-a-ww2-british-ewh17k.jpg)
> [http://cdn3.volusion.com/yrcrx.thzkt/v/vspfiles/photos/CRS13M-2.jpg](http://cdn3.volusion.com/yrcrx.thzkt/v/vspfiles/photos/CRS13M-2.jpg)
Where Google failed to deliver, the Straight Dope succeeded.
This photo you shared is perfect!
[ ](https://n7.alamy.com/zooms/6560b04b2050472a957bfbfe5f7619d7/rear-view-of-the-shoulder-of-a-man-wearing-the-uniform-of-a-ww2-british-ewh17k.jpg)
I am convinced that this is what is on Churchill’s overcoat epaulets at Yalta.
Thank you!
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/19 "2018-02-23T18:27:19Z")
> [@Algernon](#):
>
> Where Google failed to deliver, the Straight Dope succeeded.
The 'Dope never fails.
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### Author:  [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/churchills-epaulet-insignia-at-yalta/809346/20 "2018-02-23T18:41:00Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> The 'Dope never fails.
+1
(I am now so used to texting a “thumbs up” emoji, that I miss it here.)
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