# CIA prison in Lithuania: were laws broken and who should be held responsible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150 "2009-11-19T15:11:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/1 "2009-11-19T15:11:49Z")
[Story here](http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/cia-secret-prison-found/story?id=9115978). > [@ABC News](#): > > Where affluent Lithuanians once rode show horses and sipped coffee at a café, the CIA installed a concrete structure where it could use harsh tactics to interrogate up to eight suspected al-Qaeda terrorists at a time. > [@](#): > > Former CIA officials directly involved or briefed on the highly classified secret prison program tell ABC News that as many as eight suspects were held for more than a year in the Vilnius prison. Flight logs viewed by ABC News confirm that CIA planes made repeated flights into Lithuania during that period. In November 2005, after public disclosures about the program, the prison was closed, as was another “black site” in Romania. So apparently it was in use for a year or more. > [@](#): > > “The activities in that prison were illegal,” said human rights researcher John Sifton. “They included various forms of torture, including sleep deprivation, forced standing, painful stress positions.” > [@](#): > > “It obviously took a lot of effort to keep [the prison] secret,” said John Sifton, whose firm One World Research investigates human rights abuses. “There’s a reason this stuff gets kept secret.” > > “It’s an embarrassment, and a crime.” So, what laws, if any, were broken? And who should be held responsible? Should criminal charges be filed? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/2 "2009-11-19T21:34:12Z")
Since I guess that Lithuania doesn’t allow arbitrary detention, I would assume that Lithuanian law was, making of all people involved criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/3 "2009-11-19T21:56:12Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Since I guess that Lithuania doesn’t allow arbitrary detention, I would assume that Lithuanian law was, making of all people involved criminals. Unless they okayed the prison in secret legislation of their own. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/4 "2009-11-19T22:07:01Z")
I was more curious about the US involvement. Don’t we have laws against this sort of thing? Or does the fact that it took place on Lithuanian soil absolve any Americans of any (possible) wrongdoing? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/5 "2009-11-19T23:13:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I was more curious about the US involvement. Don’t we have laws against this sort of thing? Or does the fact that it took place on Lithuanian soil absolve any Americans of any (possible) wrongdoing? It’s only illegal if you get caught and convicted. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/6 "2009-11-19T23:21:17Z")
> [@](#): > > So, what laws, if any, were broken? And who should be held responsible? Should criminal charges be filed? Why or why not? My guess is that no laws were actually broken…at least not in fact. In spirit…probably. However, we have a new administration and the the Dems control the House and Senate. IF any laws were actually broken I’m sure Obama et al will spare no expense or effort to find out and punish the wrong do-ers. Not knowing any more than what was posted in the OP about this, and as with the endless ‘Bush should be impeached’ or the various ‘illegal’ acts that were supposedly common under his administration, I will await developments. I won’t be surprised if there WERE illegal acts committed…but I won’t be surprised if nothing happens this time either. Wolf!! has been cried so many times about this stuff that after a while it’s just background noise… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/7 "2009-11-19T23:35:20Z")
> [@](#): > > So, what laws, if any, were broken? It seems to me that this would be a good time for the US to sign on to the [International Criminal Court](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court); perhaps with jurisdiction retroactive to ~2003. I’m certain the court would be happy to determine precisely which laws were broken, maybe even take the perps off our hands following conviction. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/8 "2009-11-20T00:18:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Story here](http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/cia-secret-prison-found/story?id=9115978). > > So, what laws, if any, were broken? And who should be held responsible? Should criminal charges be filed? Why or why not? No one says what they personally did there, but that human rights person claims, “sleep deprivation, forced standing, painful stress positions.” He also says the buzzword “torture.” So let’s assume it was, in fact, torture. We’ll strictly use American statutes that the Attorney General could file charges under, or a statute that the victim themselves could file a civil suit with. If an American did the acts, he could be charged under these laws: [Torture Statute](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002340---A000-.html) 2340A [War Crimes Act](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002441----000-.html)(likely a violation of a grave breach under Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions) Depending on the year and whether it was military or CIA, Detainee Treatment Act. Lots of those overlap and some are redundant. If we just handed them over to foreigners and these acts were done to them by foreigners, then they could use US _civil_ courts to sue for money damages under: [Torture Victim Protection Act](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode28/usc_sec_28_00001350----000-notes.html) (Can’t sue US citizens though) Should criminal charges be filed? Depends on what kind of evidence you have, which I bet is not good or no longer exists. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/9 "2009-11-20T00:25:53Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Wolf!! has been cried so many times about this stuff that after a while it’s just background noise… Really? And when would that be? “Crying wolf” refers to making false alarms; not to pointing out actual atrocities that are ignored because Americans under the orders of Republicans did them. And no, regardless of what happened, regardless of how good the evidence is I don’t expect anyone to be brought to justice. Justice is unAmerican. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/10 "2009-11-20T15:37:50Z")
> [@](#): > > I was more curious about the US involvement. Don’t we have laws against this sort of thing? Or does the fact that it took place on Lithuanian soil absolve any Americans of any (possible) wrongdoing? Offhand (and IANAL) I’d say that nothing was technically a violation of American law. All of the torture occurred in Lithuania and presumedly no Americans were in the same room. So the issue is whether turning prisoners over to another country, even with the awareness that they’re going to be tortured, is illegal. And I think the answer is probably no. Prisoners have rights when they’re in American custody but I don’t think there’s a right to remain in American custody and not be handed off to another country’s custody. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/11 "2009-11-20T16:32:59Z")
I don’t know what laws would have been violated if the program was as described. I do know that this suggestion: > [@Squink](#): > > …with jurisdiction retroactive to ~2003. > I’m certain the court would be happy to determine precisely which laws were broken, maybe even take the perps off our hands following conviction. … would be violative of our general prohibition against Ex Post Facto laws if conducted by an American court. It’s not clear to me whether the Ex Post Facto clause would work to prohibit our signing a treaty that surrendered Ex Post Facto protections. And I do find the glee with which **Squink** evidently contemplates imposing ex post facto penalties to be a bit disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/12 "2009-11-20T16:48:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Offhand (and IANAL) I’d say that nothing was technically a violation of American law. All of the torture occurred in Lithuania and presumedly no Americans were in the same room. So the issue is whether turning prisoners over to another country, even with the awareness that they’re going to be tortured, is illegal. And I think the answer is probably no. Prisoners have rights when they’re in American custody but I don’t think there’s a right to remain in American custody and not be handed off to another country’s custody. The article isn’t clear on this, but it gives me the impression that it was only Americans involved, not Lithuanians. > [@ABC News](#): > > Intelligence officers working at the prison were housed next door in the converted stable, raising the roof to add space. Electrical power for both structures was provided by a 2003 Caterpillar autonomous generator. All the electrical outlets in the renovated structure were 110 volts, meaning they were designed for American appliances. European outlets and appliances typically use 220 volts. > [@ABC News](#): > > Locals who saw the activity at the prison and approached to ask for work were turned away by English-speaking guards. The guards were replaced by new guards every 90 days. > [@ABC News](#): > > On Tuesday, the CIA again declined to talk about the prison. “The CIA’s terrorist interrogation program is over,” said CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano. “This agency does not discuss publicly where detention facilities may or may not have been.” Thanks to **CoolHandCox** for linking relevant statutes. I agree with **Bricker** that any attempt to retroactively make something a crime is somewhat disturbing, but that isn’t what was suggested by **Squink**. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/13 "2009-11-20T16:50:46Z")
**Bricker** , the fact that these crimes did occur, and that our own government did them, and that so many people, including (ahem) you, approved of those actions is far more disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/14 "2009-11-20T17:03:09Z")
> [@](#): > > The article isn’t clear on this, but it gives me the impression that it was only Americans involved, not Lithuanians. The article seemed ambiguous to me about exactly which roles were being carried out by Americans and which by Lithuanians. It’s reasonable however to surmise that if the American government went to such great lengths to create a facility outside of American jurisdiction in order to remain within the letter of American law, it wouldn’t have then turned around and used American agents in an incriminating role. I guess this is a reversal of the old Nuremburg defense: “I never commited any war crimes personally. I just gave orders.” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/15 "2009-11-20T17:05:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The article seemed ambiguous to me about exactly which roles were being carried out by Americans and which by Lithuanians. It’s reasonable however to surmise that if the American government went to such great lengths to create a facility outside of American jurisdiction in order to remain within the letter of American law, it wouldn’t have then turned around and used American agents in an incriminating role. > > I guess this is a reversal of the old Nuremburg defense: “I never commited any war crimes personally. I just gave orders.” I wouldn’t say “ambiguous”, as the article never mentions Lithuanians doing anything other than allowing the CIA to open the facility, except to talk about locals (Lithuanians) seeking employment there. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/16 "2009-11-20T17:06:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … would be violative of our general prohibition against Ex Post Facto laws if conducted by an American court. I just think It’d be a nice way of taking us down to the level of the last administration: “ **Oh no, we hanged George Bush _and_ violated our deepest held principles to do it!** ” Then whenever a Dem mentions state sanctioned torture, you can bring up unjust hanging of presidents. 😉 Still, it might be a good idea for the US to sign up with the international court now, so as to discourage future presidents from finding weaselly ways to protect themselves against prosecution for war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/17 "2009-11-20T17:13:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The article seemed ambiguous to me about exactly which roles were being carried out by Americans and which by Lithuanians. It’s reasonable however to surmise that if the American government went to such great lengths to create a facility outside of American jurisdiction in order to remain within the letter of American law, it wouldn’t have then turned around and used American agents in an incriminating role. > > I guess this is a reversal of the old Nuremburg defense: “I never commited any war crimes personally. I just gave orders.” I agree that criminality hinges on two things: first, the acts committed by U.S. citizens as opposed to Lithuanians; secondly, what the specific acts were. As **CoolhandCox** correctly says: > [@](#): > > No one says what they personally did there, but that human rights person claims, “sleep deprivation, forced standing, painful stress positions.” He also says the buzzword “torture.” Torture is defined for purposes of 18 USC § 2340A as: “Severe physical or mental pain or suffering.” Mental pain or suffering means: > [@](#): > > prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from— > (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; > (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; > (C) the threat of imminent death; or > (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality. For this reason, it’s not clear to me that the specifics described: sleep deprivation, forced standing, and painful stress positions – are “torture” within the meaning of 18 USC § 2340. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/18 "2009-11-20T18:17:24Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > I just think It’d be a nice way of taking us down to the level of the last administration: > “ **Oh no, we hanged George Bush _and_ violated our deepest held principles to do it!** ” I’ll say! Everyone knows you _shoot_ such people. Hanging is reserved for pirates. And beheading is just intolerably French. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/19 "2009-11-20T18:25:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Torture is defined for purposes of 18 USC § 2340A as: "… it’s not clear to me that the specifics described: sleep deprivation, forced standing, and painful stress positions – are “torture” within the meaning of 18 USC § 2340. It isn’t clear to you? _Really?_ :dubious: It might be if you were subjected to it yourself, perhaps FTR, your hero Gonzales was of the view that US law didn’t apply because this was war. [The Geneva Conventions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention), then: > [@](#): > > Article 2 states that signatories are bound by the convention both in war, armed conflicts where war has not been declared and in an occupation of another country’s territory. > Article 3 states that even where there is not a conflict of international character the parties must as a minimum adhere to minimal protections described as: noncombatants, members of armed forces who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, with the following prohibitions: > (a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; > (b) taking of hostages; > (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment > (d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. And, [here’s the definition](http://untreaty.un.org/english/treatyevent2001/pdf/07e.pdf) by the relevant UN treaty: > [@](#): > > CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE AND OTHER CRUEL, INHUMAN OR DEGRADING TREATMENT OR PUNISHMENT > … > For the purposes of this Convention, the term “torture” means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. But then you know all that already, don’t you? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/20 "2009-11-21T18:25:03Z")
> [@](#): > > And beheading is just intolerably French. What if we call it Freedom Execution? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150.md?page=2)