# CIA prison in Lithuania: were laws broken and who should be held responsible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150 "2009-11-19T15:11:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/21 "2009-11-21T18:47:15Z")
So is this how we can expect the US to treat her allies in the future? First you ask them to do you a big favour, help your secret service and host some very dangerous people, part of the deal I should assume, that it should be kept secret by all parties. And at no trivial discomfort and disadvantage to the Lithuanians one might add. And next you hang them out to dry in your tabloid press for their effort. Why should anyone ever again trust Americans on their word? Or is it merely that US agreements are only valid until the next administration moves into the white house? Did the American press consider they fucked a faithful American ally in the ass when they made this information public, or was that never part of the consideration? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/22 "2009-11-21T19:00:46Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Did the American press consider they fucked a faithful American ally in the ass when they made this information public, or was that never part of the consideration? You say ally, I say accomplice. The press should not feel that loyalty to the state requires that they cover up this sort of behavior, from the US or anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/23 "2009-11-21T19:02:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree that criminality hinges on two things: first, the acts committed by U.S. citizens as opposed to Lithuanians; secondly, what the specific acts were. As **CoolhandCox** correctly says: > > Torture is defined for purposes of 18 USC § 2340A as: “Severe physical or mental pain or suffering.” Mental pain or suffering means: > > For this reason, it’s not clear to me that the specifics described: sleep deprivation, forced standing, and painful stress positions – are “torture” within the meaning of 18 USC § 2340. IIRC, weren’t all three used on John McCain at the Hanoi Hilton? I believe he’s unable to move his arms over his head as a result of the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/24 "2009-11-21T19:38:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For this reason, it’s not clear to me that the specifics described: sleep deprivation, forced standing, and painful stress positions – are “torture” within the meaning of 18 USC § 2340. They seem to rest on the idea of whether an act can “disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality”. Within the Bill of Rights, at least, I think it’s safe to say that one purpose of the Fifth Amendment right to avoid self-incrimination was to make torture infeasible. Assuming you agree with that, then it could be said that this opens up a definition of torture to mean any sort of act that would be dire enough to cause a person to incriminate himself. But of course, we are perfectly allowed to confuse and trick suspects into compromising themselves. So let’s narrow that definition down as, “Any act which, by method of making the target miserable, makes a suspect become willing to incriminate himself may be considered torture.” I’d say that this definition comes quite close to “profoundly disrupting the senses or the personality.” While I don’t know that it could be argued that sleep deprivation would be considered torture by the definition in 18 USC § 2340, the basic foundations of justice itself seem to preclude anything used specifically as an attempt to induce information by means of making a person miserable. Really, I’d be more worried about that than about any particular definition of torture. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/25 "2009-11-21T20:17:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > IIRC, weren’t all three used on John McCain at the Hanoi Hilton? I believe he’s unable to move his arms over his head as a result of the latter. If that’s true, then it’s clearly torture. Anything that causes that sort of long-term physical damage is torture. So all we need now is a cite that McCain’s arm injury is the result of painful stress positions, as that term is being used by the Lithuanian descriptions. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/26 "2009-11-21T20:20:28Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > While I don’t know that it could be argued that sleep deprivation would be considered torture by the definition in 18 USC § 2340, the basic foundations of justice itself seem to preclude anything used specifically as an attempt to induce information by means of making a person miserable. Really, I’d be more worried about that than about any particular definition of torture. If we’re answering the question, “Were laws broken?” then ‘the basic foundations of justice’ isn’t a standard that applies. I agree that these practices are worrisome for those reasons, but it’s not relevent to the issue of criminal liability. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/27 "2009-11-21T20:24:22Z")
Really, is that all we need? Just utterly disgusting, indefensible and inhuman behavior - in the name of the American people. Is that what it’s come to fopr some, discussing the nicities of the criminal law? Jesus fucking Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/28 "2009-11-21T20:39:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So all we need now is a cite that McCain’s arm injury is the result of painful stress positions, as that term is being used by the Lithuanian descriptions. Wikipedia supports my recollection that the arm problems resulted from his crash and capture, not from in prison torture: > [@](#): > > John McCain’s capture and subsequent imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.[33][34] McCain fractured both arms and a leg ejecting from the aircraft,[35] and nearly drowned when he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake.[33] Some North Vietnamese pulled him ashore, then others crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt and bayoneted him.[33] McCain was then transported to Hanoi’s main Hoa Lo Prison, nicknamed the “Hanoi Hilton”.[34] > **[John McCain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain)** > > John Sidney McCain III (August 29, 1936 – August 25, 2018) was an American politician and naval officer who represented Arizona in the United States Congress for over 35 years, first as a U.S. representative from 1983 to 1987, then as a U.S. senator from 1987 until his death in 2018. A member of the Republican Party, he was the party's nominee in the 2008 presidential election. > Born into the prominent McCain family in the Panama Canal Zone, McCain graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy in 19... However, there are also all sorts of other stories about ther origin of the disability on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/29 "2009-11-21T20:43:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If we’re answering the question, “Were laws broken?” then ‘the basic foundations of justice’ isn’t a standard that applies. I agree that these practices are worrisome for those reasons, but it’s not relevent to the issue of criminal liability. Depends on how wide-reaching your judges are. I believe there’s any amount of precedence for the Supreme Court (for example) deciding based on underlying theories rather than cited law and technical definitions. That is, in fact, a large part of their job. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/30 "2009-11-21T21:14:42Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Depends on how wide-reaching your judges are. I believe there’s any amount of precedence for the Supreme Court (for example) deciding based on underlying theories rather than cited law and technical definitions. That is, in fact, a large part of their job. No, it’s not. It’s a basic principle that criminal statutes are to be strictly construed against the government. So, no, the Supreme Court cannot create a crime on the basis of “underlying theories” when the “cited law and technical definitions” don’t prohibit the conduct. The criminal law must give fair and specific notice of the conduct that is prohibited. But since you believe otherise, perhaps you could provide a cite of the Supreme Court sustaining a criminal conviction based on underlying legal theories, when the actual law did not specifically describe the prohibited conduct. Since it’s a large part of their job, examples should be easy. Now, if we’re not talking about criminal law, but something more ephemeral (like international law) then all bets are off. But the laws discussed above are criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/31 "2009-11-21T21:31:09Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > So is this how we can expect the US to treat her allies in the future? First you ask them to do you a big favour, help your secret service and host some very dangerous people, part of the deal I should assume, that it should be kept secret by all parties. And at no trivial discomfort and disadvantage to the Lithuanians one might add. And next you hang them out to dry in your tabloid press for their effort. Why should anyone ever again trust Americans on their word? Or is it merely that US agreements are only valid until the next administration moves into the white house? Did the American press consider they fucked a faithful American ally in the ass when they made this information public, or was that never part of the consideration? Personally, as a European, I’d appreciate it if you guys take your illegal and immoral torturing racket home where it belongs and can be prosecuted - or at least weighed according to **your own fucking laws** - instead of trying to weasel out of that using much smaller states that can be easily muscled or bribed into compliance. Or in other words: practice what you preach or be prepared to take the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/32 "2009-11-21T21:41:48Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Personally, as a European, I’d appreciate it if you guys take your illegal and immoral torturing racket home where it belongs and can be prosecuted - or at least weighed according to **your own fucking laws** - instead of trying to weasel out of that using much smaller states that can be easily muscled or bribed into compliance. Or in other words: practice what you preach or be prepared to take the consequences. It can be prosecuted under our own laws. A few of them would cover the prescribed acts (assuming a jury decided they constituted torture). ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/33 "2009-11-21T21:46:49Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > It can be prosecuted under our own laws. A few of them would cover the prescribed acts (assuming a jury decided they constituted torture). Maybe, I’m not that knowledgeable on US law. It sure looks like this is just a way to first hide the acts (whatever they may be) and then add some nicely confusing legal questions when they get found out. **Rune** can’t possibly be under the impression that all of this was unquestionably legal - if it was, it would be much cheaper and efficient to just torture people in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/34 "2009-11-21T21:55:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now, if we’re not talking about criminal law, but something more ephemeral (like international law) then all bets are off. But the laws discussed above are criminal. I’ll have to search down criminal cases that made it all the way to the Supreme Court, and perhaps you’re right. I was thinking of cases like Roe Vs. Wade or the ones that came up with Ceremonial Deism, where it’s quite certain that they were going based on larger concepts rather than specific case law. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/35 "2009-11-21T22:18:18Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Really, is that all we need? > > Just utterly disgusting, indefensible and inhuman behavior - in the name of the American people. > > Is that what it’s come to fopr some, discussing the nicities of the criminal law? Jesus fucking Christ. I really doubt that many of the people in this thread, much less America care about anything more. We tortured in the first place, and let most of the people who did so ( and all of the higher ups ) escape without punishment because as a nation we are just that brutal. We don’t care about human rights, nor have we ever; we care that we got caught and embarrassed in front of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/36 "2009-11-21T22:50:49Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I’ll have to search down criminal cases that made it all the way to the Supreme Court, and perhaps you’re right. I was thinking of cases like Roe Vs. Wade or the ones that came up with Ceremonial Deism, where it’s quite certain that they were going based on larger concepts rather than specific case law. Oh, sure, absolutely. The Court can, and often has, articulated broad principles of _protection_ from very basic concepts. The right of the people to be free from unreasonable search and seizure, for example, gave rise to the very specific exclusionary rules suppressing evidence seized under certain circumstances. The right against self-incrimination gave rise to the very specific Miranda warning. But those are all instances of narrrowing things the government can do against the people. When it’s the government writing criminal law, they have to be specific enough so that the conduct that’s prohibited is clear. In this area, they can’t enunciate broad ideas and then let the courts come up with bright-line specifics, because a person wouldn’t necessarily know, ahead of time, if he was committing a crime or not. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/37 "2009-11-21T23:01:47Z")
I assume that it would come down to whether it could be shown that methods such as these could result in a regular person being willing to incriminate himself in something that he didn’t actually do. That seems like a fairly reasonable standard for what does or doesn’t constitute a case of “disrupt[ing] profoundly the senses or the personality”. I should also point out that at least three different anti-torture laws were presented in this thread. We’ve only debated the one. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/38 "2009-11-21T23:08:04Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Really, is that all we need? > > Just utterly disgusting, indefensible and inhuman behavior - in the name of the American people. > > Is that what it’s come to fopr some, discussing the nicities of the criminal law? Jesus fucking Christ. Jesus fucking Christ, when you charge someone with a criminal act, you have to be able to point to the actual law they violated. And that’s what this thread’s OP asked. Kudos to you for your keenly developed sense of outrage. I think that it’s also pretty disgusting to imagine a system in which we can make up crimes after the fact, which is, I gather, what you’re wishing we could do here. But Jesus Fucking Christ, what abuses would arise if we did that! Sure, in this case, eeryone would cheer as we hauled off the perps to face charges of violating our general sense of justice. But that’s not a power we should give the government. It well may be that this conduct did violate existing law. But to answer that question, we must look to the actual law, the words as written. Not your enlightened sense of outrage. Jesus Fucking Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/39 "2009-11-21T23:09:40Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Personally, as a European, I’d appreciate it if you guys take your illegal and immoral torturing racket home where it belongs and can be prosecuted - or at least weighed according to **your own fucking laws** - instead of trying to weasel out of that using much smaller states that can be easily muscled or bribed into compliance. Or in other words: practice what you preach or be prepared to take the consequences. Personally, as a European, and of a small country allied with the USA in the war on terror, in Iraq and Afghanistan I’m wondering when the US is going to sell us down the river for public tabloid amusement and if it is really worth being a fried of the USA when their appreciation is so obviously trivial. I’m thinking if the USA had really valued and respected what Lithuania had done for them they wouldn’t have gone that extra mile to embarrass them or put them in unnecessary danger. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150/40 "2009-11-21T23:19:19Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Personally, as a European, and of a small country allied with the USA in the war on terror, in Iraq and Afghanistan I’m wondering when the US is going to sell us down the river for public tabloid amusement and if it is really worth being a fried of the USA when their appreciation is so obviously trivial. I’m thinking if the USA had really valued and respected what Lithuania had done for them they wouldn’t have gone that extra mile to embarrass them or put them in unnecessary danger. Well, too damned bad. If they were willing to cooperate with torture then they deserve quite a bit more than embarrassment. And if this makes other countries less willing to cooperate with such vile behavior, _ **good** _. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cia-prison-in-lithuania-were-laws-broken-and-who-should-be-held-responsible/518150.md?page=3)