# Cicero: “assistance to foreign lands” - what lands? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 2, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918 "2011-02-02T18:10:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/1 "2011-02-02T18:10:27Z")
Here is Cicero: _“The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”_ All of course as excellent advice, in Rome as in the 21st century, but what does he refer to with “assistance to foreign lands”? ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/2 "2011-02-02T19:09:32Z")
There is [some doubt](http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=28532) that Cicero ever said any such thing. The flow of money would normally be in the other direction. Rome did occasionally pay off hostile tribes, when it was cheaper than going to war, but I don’t think this happened during the Republic period. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/3 "2011-02-02T19:13:37Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Here is Cicero: > _“The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.”_ > > All of course as excellent advice, in Rome as in the 21st century, but what does he refer to with “assistance to foreign lands”? Just where did Cicero say that? I don’t recall seeing it before. ETA: Snope’d again. Damn slow typing! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/4 "2011-02-02T19:37:28Z")
New rule: If a historical figure is reported as having said something appropriate to the modern day, chances are he never actually said it. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/5 "2011-02-02T19:44:55Z")
Did the Roman Empire have a public debt? The idea seems too modern for them. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/6 "2011-02-02T20:01:03Z")
Also, did the Romans have public assistance? I’ve never heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/7 "2011-02-02T20:03:24Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > Also, did the Romans have public assistance? I’ve never heard of it. Yes: bread and circuses. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/8 "2011-02-02T20:05:32Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > Also, did the Romans have public assistance? I’ve never heard of it. They famously had a grain-dole for citizens. Its the “Bread” part of “Bread and Circuses”. And Cicero was indeed critical of it, though as a guy who earned a lot of money off the labor of his slaves, his criticism of other people needing to do more work would be kinda rich. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/9 "2011-02-02T20:29:54Z")
Oh, right… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/10 "2011-02-02T20:56:12Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > They famously had a grain-dole for citizens. Its the “Bread” part of “Bread and Circuses”. And Cicero was indeed critical of it, though as a guy who earned a lot of money off the labor of his slaves, his criticism of other people needing to do more work would be kinda rich. Was it an actual dole though (as in formal, bureaucratic, “fill out tablet 7B and go see Procius Manilius on the 3rd floor”) ? For whatever reason, I always assumed the bread part of “Bread & Circuses” was just people throwing loaves of bread into the crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/11 "2011-02-02T20:59:37Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > They famously had a grain-dole for citizens. Its the “Bread” part of “Bread and Circuses”. And Cicero was indeed critical of it, though as a guy who earned a lot of money off the labor of his slaves, his criticism of other people needing to do more work would be kinda rich. Erm, wasn’t the grain-dole supposed to supply only the people in the _city_ of Rome? I have a hard time interpreting that as “assistance to foreign lands” - it seems more like the opposite, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/12 "2011-02-02T21:15:43Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Erm, wasn’t the grain-dole supposed to supply only the people in the _city_ of Rome? I have a hard time interpreting that as “assistance to foreign lands” - it seems more like the opposite, in fact. I was responding to a poster asking about the “public assistance” part of the quote. > [@Kobol](#): > > Was it an actual dole though (as in formal, bureaucratic, “fill out tablet 7B and go see Procius Manilius on the 3rd floor”) ? For whatever reason, I always assumed the bread part of “Bread & Circuses” was just people throwing loaves of bread into the crowd. It meant different things at different times, but it was usually more systematic then just tossing bread to people at random. Sometimes it was just a subsidy for grain delivered to the city, sometimes qualifying citizens could go and pick up grain for free. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/13 "2011-02-02T21:25:13Z")
The “bread and circuses” phrase is from Juvenal: > [@](#): > > Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses From [Bread and circuses - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses#History:) > [@](#): > > Juvenal here makes reference to the Roman practice of providing free wheat to Roman citizens as well as costly circus games and other forms of entertainment as a means of gaining political power through populism. The Annona (grain dole) was begun under the instigation of the popularis politician Gaius Sempronius Gracchus in 123 BC; it remained an object of political contention until it was taken under the control of the Roman emperors. The film, Gladiator, includes a scene where the crowds are showered with loaves of bread just as the gladiators enter the ring. From upthread: > [@](#): > > New rule: If a historical figure is reported as having said something appropriate to the modern day, chances are he never actually said it. Possible exception to new rule: Juvenal. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/14 "2011-02-03T00:36:12Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > All of course as excellent advice, in Rome as in the 21st century, but what does he refer to with “assistance to foreign lands”? The kind of assistance lent by Rome usually finished with Rome ruling over the foreign land they were assisting (and paid for themselves in pillage and slaves in the process). In Cicero’s day the classic example of this was Julius Caesar’s Gallic Wars which began when several Gallic tribes appealed for help from Rome in the face of invasion from the Helvetii. And yeah, in common with other posters, I would want a reliable source for this quote before I attributed it to Cicero. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/15 "2011-02-03T00:41:05Z")
There is a fairly involved discussion of the dubious origin of this quote [here](http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/?p=5543) ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/16 "2011-02-03T01:05:31Z")
I was of the understanding that Roman “Social Security” was provided via form of Patronage- an impoverished Roman would go to the house of a wealthy Roman citizen (or Senator or whoever) to get food or small amounts of money, in return for pledging their support to the Patron. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/17 "2011-02-03T01:42:18Z")
The passage as rendered in the OP quote has some turns of phrase from modern politics such that it looks to me more like a paraphrase rather than a translation – done by someone who was interpreting Cicero from the POV of contemporary policy positions. One important thing to note is that Cicero lived at the end of the Republic. As mentioned, “living on public assistance” would more likely have been “living on _ **patronage and charity** _” - at the time, the _panem_ was political patronage, doled out as the personal gift of some official or candidate. Not welfare as we know it, but folks knowing that if you were on Crassus’ good side he’d remember you if you needed a little something to tide you over 'til the calends, or that Pompey would finance a few galleys of grain to come in just as the market was getting tight. “Assistance to foreign lands”? As mentioned, in Cicero’s lifetime, tribute would be flowing INTO Rome from many peripheral nations. Maye the ocassional bribe to a local king to keep him a loyal bootlicker, or support in the form of troops and trade to a peripheral realm against a common foe (and the local princeling had better be careful, or this would end up with the Romans deciding hey, why not just take over) but NOT “nation-building” funds. Heck, I may be wrong but at the time I believe that even in the provinces themselves, if you wanted to build an aqueduct or road, you had to pay it by levying a tax IN the province, not by getting an earmark from the Senate. Even Antony’s attempts to gain a power base with his own allies in Egypt and Asia Minor would not count as “aid” since those places were _wealthy_ economies themselves. Yes, many officials had by now decided the Republic was to be run for their own aggrandizement as the only true savior of the people (Marius,Sulla, Pompey, Caesar, etc.) but that was the least of their problems. The Republic HAD crashed and burned under the weight of its own sociopolitical failings into a state of on-again-off-again civil wars that had gone on for decades and would still go on for years after Cicero’s death. That can’t have been good for the national finances so it’s likely true that the budget was busted and the administration was a mess, but the quote is pretty thin on how the heck you fix that. **griffin1977** ’s link’s discussion seems to point to it being an _attribution_ to Cicero in \*fiction \*rather than from his own works. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/18 "2011-02-03T16:38:40Z")
From Juvenal to Roddenberry: [Bread and Circuses (episode) | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bread_and_Circuses) ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cicero-assistance-to-foreign-lands-what-lands/569918/19 "2011-02-04T13:11:57Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Did the Roman Empire have a public debt? The idea seems too modern for them. Alexander the Great had one much earlier, not just the personal debt of a king but a debt inherited from the reign of his father which he expanded to fund his military adventures. Probably paid it off after all that conquest, though. > [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > Also, did the Romans have public assistance? I’ve never heard of it. I know you don’t say it was too modern for them, but I thought I’d point out that the Greeks had some of that too. Of course, not for slaves. Slaves just made it all possible with their tireless involuntary labour.