# Cindy Sheehan has lost her ever-loving mind **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 17, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071 "2005-09-17T00:53:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![zeeny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zeeny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeeny)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/201 "2005-09-20T04:57:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, it’s my final answer. It was an attempt to get you to define your terms. Without further elaboration, it seems as if you’ve commited the fallacy of the excluded middle, and you’re seeing politics in terms of left/right, which gets in the way of any actual understanding of nuance. The rest of the terms I asked you to define follow a similar pattern; I’m trying to figure out where you’re coming from and what your axioms are. > > Oh, and, by the way, I’m not a liberal let alone a Liberal. Just, ya know, in case you were wondering. Fair enough. I hate being labeled myself. I was trying to be, ya know, sarcastic (as long as we are flinging around stuff like “people like you”). Nuance is good by me, but if you ask around, you’ll hear that it doesn’t win elections - much less hearts and minds. Still, I’m sorry if my arguments were too subtle (?). I’m “coming from” a place where I’m tired of hearing the same talking points and arguments regurgitated again and again. Not your fault, of course, or even Starving Artist’s fault, but I sometimes lose patience with the usual dialogue. I’m no psychic, or particularly astute, but I read the thread titles and I swear I can predict with great accuracy what will be posted. There’s _got_ to be a better way, but damn if I know what it is, or what to do about it. Meanwhile, I try to be a thorn in the side of ideologues of any stripe - if only to get them to think again on what they seem to be so set upon. It helps me too - I’m not above being “conned” by rhetoric that tells me what I want to hear. Sorry I can’t do better than that. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/202 "2005-09-20T05:02:57Z")
> [@zeeny](#): > > Nuance is good by me, but if you ask around, you’ll hear that it doesn’t win elections - much less hearts and minds. Still, I’m sorry if my arguments were too subtle (?). Well, ruthless memetic combat seems to win elections, at least recently… but I’ve never been one to put politics above truth. > [@zeeny](#): > > I’m “coming from” a place where I’m tired of hearing the same talking points and arguments regurgitated again and again. Not your fault, of course, or even Starving Artist’s fault, but I sometimes lose patience with the usual dialogue. I don’t think you could find a better message board for people holding intelligent rational discussion. Talking points are, more often than not, called out. > [@zeeny](#): > > I’m no psychic, or particularly astute, but I read the thread titles and I swear I can predict with great accuracy what will be posted. There’s _got_ to be a better way, but damn if I know what it is, or what to do about it. There are the Usual Suspects, of course… but sometimes what will be posted is what people honestly believe. > [@zeeny](#): > > Meanwhile, I try to be a thorn in the side of ideologues of any stripe - if only to get them to think again on what they seem to be so set upon. It helps me too - I’m not above being “conned” by rhetoric that tells me what I want to hear. Fair enough. You should fit in fine here. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/203 "2005-09-20T14:09:35Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > I won’t argue with most of that, but how in the world can you guys continue to claim that he is responsible for the rejection of the Kyoto Treaty? Congress decided, unanimously, I might add, to not even consider its adoption during the Clinton administration. I said, “his role.” Bush said back in 2001 that global warming needed to be addressed, but Kyoto wasn’t the answer. In the four years since, he’s not presented an alternative. The clock’s a-ticking, the polar icecap’s a-melting. Meanwhile, he’s playing stallball on this, quite successfully. > [@](#): > > As far as the “American aristocracy”, let’s not forget that there were two Presidents named Adams and Roosevelt, and had Bobby Kennedy not been assassinated or Teddy been a drunk there would have been three Kennedys. Other than the Adamses they are all Democrats. I’m talking about something completely different - Bush’s and the GOP’s efforts to minimize the taxation of wealth, and income earned from wealth rather than from work. Bush has moved the ball forward a great deal here; chances are that if it hadn’t been for Katrina, they’d have been able to get permanent estate tax repeal through Congress by now. These are the means by which one creates a permanent aristocracy. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/204 "2005-09-20T14:11:09Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I elucidated further on this point following my initial post by saying that many other people have had these same and even greater advantages and done nothing with them. This includes, but is far from limited to, the offspring of every president I can recall during my lifetime. A great many people have been born to wealth and privilege that far outshines that of Bush, yet none have acheived anything close to what he has. I was referring not just to his birth, but the repeated bailouts of his failed businesses by Daddy’s friends and connections. If you go into the dairy business, and all your milk spoils, it’s hard to fail if someone comes along and buys up your spoiled milk at a price that gives you a hefty profit. > [@](#): > > This is not necessarily so. Many people have risen from humble backgrounds to acheive stunning success, and if somehow given the same qualities he has now he may very well have done so himself. There is absolutely no way you can with certainty that he wouldn’t have. Of course not - can’t prove a negative. But if he’d been born in my family, no one would have been _available_ to buy his failed businesses for enough money to make him come out ahead. > [@](#): > > Again (and boy, dead horses really have to be flayed forever around here), my point was and is that Bush’s record of acheivement is really quite amazing, and that he’s nowhere near the kind of wooden-headed dolt that so many around here like to portray him as being. His record in business is _solely_ one of being rescued by sugar daddies. What’s amazing about that, other than access to sugar daddies? As far as politics goes, I’ve long since stopped suggesting he’s incompetent. He’s quite successful at the parts of his current job he cares about - look at his record with tax cuts for the rich. Look at his record of ladling no-bid contracts to outfits like Halliburton. Look at his record of gutting the inspectors-general to make it easier for those contracts to be simply about free money. > [@](#): > > I doubt very strongly that you or anyone else here – and I include myself as well – could begin to handle the complexities of his job…either with the Rangers or in the Oval Office. Rangers? According to John Helyar’s 1995 economic history of baseball, _Lords of the Realm_, Bush was a gladhanding figurehead. I bet I could manage that. Oval Office? It depends on what one’s objectives are. Certainly, few people could service his rich buddies, and well-connected corporations, with the skill his Adminstration has managed. But the _country_ would be better off today if **danceswithcats** or **Airman Doors** - to pick a coupla guys who I often disagree with, who have no particular talent for politics, but who unquestionably have the country’s best interests at heart - had been running it since January 20, 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/205 "2005-09-25T22:05:27Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Crazy is the new “card-carrying liberal,” don’tcha understand? These days, right-wingers positively trip over themselves to be the first to tar those who speak out against Bush with the “delusional” brush. Michael Moore, Howard Dean, Paul O’Neill, Richard Clarke, Joe Wilson, Dan Rather, (9/11 widow) Kristin Braitweiser, Cindy Sheehan … they’re all cuckoo according to these flailing, pathetic Bush-defenders. Since the talking point is that Cindy’s crazy, they repeat it over and over again in their echo chambers. Can I have a cite for Republican echo chambers? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > And it’s so effective that even some lefties are falling over backwards to stiff-arm Sheehan, afraid to associate themselves with her. Just look at the first few posts on this thread from many known SDMB liberals, all basically saying “Cindy S. doesn’t count.” How many? Building strawmans today? I think she counts. Not any more than you or I though? > [@](#): > > Through all this, no one actually has any **reasons** for believing she’s delusional. It’s just the latest meaningless meme the right is trying to spread, like “blame game” was last week. And for the third time, if she’s delusional because she calls N.O. “occupied,” then you’d better fucking call Brian Williams delusional as well. Calling NOLA occupied is pretty fucking delusional in my book. > [@](#): > > Disagreeing with you is NOT crazy, rightwingers. (Indeed, to some that may be the very definition of sanity.) I’m not a rightwinger. [quote[Now to the hijack…[/quote] Okelly dokelly. > [@](#): > > Yes, well, perhaps you’ll forgive me if I trust respected experts, authors and journalists such as Kevin Phillips, Charles Lewis, Lou Dubose, and Craig Unger far more than some anonymous dude on a message board, no matter how many posts he has. Normally this logic is sound. In this particular case though, it is nonetheless wrong. > [@](#): > > (I learned _my_ facts from sources such as this [Texas Observer article](http://www.texasobserver.org/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=1069), not to mention the aforementioned _American Dynasty_ by conservative Kevin Phillips, _Bushwacked_ by Lou Dubose & Molly Ivans, the non-partisan [Center for Public Integrity](http://www.publicintegrity.org/report.aspx?aid=465), among many many others.) Yes, me too, and many others besides. I will be happy to discuss the Harkens issue with you in minute detail. First though, you need to bring yourself up to speed (and, I assure you, it will be painful.) We discussed **all** of your points in a huge harangue a couple of years ago. Here it is: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=123597&highlight=krugman](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=123597&highlight=krugman) If you would like to discuss this topic, than fine. I’m not really willing to repeat myself over and over again. Read that thread. Study it. Take notes. Come back with questions or objections so that we cover new ground, and I will happilly discuss any issues you still have. > [@](#): > > Drove the price _up_? Not quite. Bush sold his stock after the board was told Harken was in serious financial trouble. He then hurriedly sold his stock for $4 per share prior to the release of this news. And after Harken’s fiscal crisis (a 60% plunge in profits) was revealed, the stock spiraled down 20% in a single day, eventually selling for only $1 per share. Covered, complete with cites for stock price, timelines, the whole deal. And, I look at the rest of your post and see that we’ve covered it all as well. Seriously, no offense intended here, but I hate to do the same work twice. Read the thread carefully, come back and ask questions with links to the relevant posts in that thread, and I’ll be glad to reply in detail. Rarely, if ever, has a topic been so minutely examined on this board as that one. I daresay, neither Elucidator nor I have ever been the same since. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/206 "2005-09-25T22:27:37Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > But the _country_ would be better off today if **danceswithcats** or **Airman Doors** - to pick a coupla guys who I often disagree with, who have no particular talent for politics, but who unquestionably have the country’s best interests at heart - had been running it since January 20, 2001. Thanks for that statement of confidence. 😃 After tomorrow, I may have a better focus on reform in PA. Perhaps if unknowns can successfully sweep the rascals out of Harrisburg, other states will feel equally inspired, and then the District of Columbia will be the next political machine to be dismantled. ---
**Author:** ![zeeny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zeeny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeeny)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/207 "2005-09-25T23:02:35Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’m not a rightwinger. Only a semantic nit-pick, really. What you appear to be is an “anti”. Anti-liberal, anti-leftist, anti-criticism of the arrogant, disingenuous, walk in lock-step, chant the talking point, insert roll-eye smiley here, anti-ness. Here’s what troubles me about that. I mean, in addition to the subtle reminders of the beginnings of fascism. Once you’ve weakened or destroyed all the ideas and things and people you are against, what do you do next? How do you manage a large, diverse, superpower country, and what is your vision about the future of that country and the well-being and security of its citizens. What message are you sending to the rest of the world? And after we’ve digested all the talking points, and the double talk, and the blast-from-the-past Clinton references, and the staged photo-ops… What have you got for us? What are you _for_? To quote a “delusional, manipulated, ignorant cow”: “What is your _Noble Cause_?” No need to literally answer that, as you well know. We are living it as I type this, aren’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/208 "2005-09-26T00:21:06Z")
> [@zeeny](#): > > Only a semantic nit-pick, really. > > What you appear to be is an “anti”. Anti-liberal, anti-leftist, anti-criticism of the arrogant, disingenuous, walk in lock-step, chant the talking point, insert roll-eye smiley here, anti-ness. Except for the fact that what you would call “rightwing” is actually a majority of the country. Not the majority of the SDMB, for sure, and probably not a majority of internet users in general. Nevertheless, a majority of people IRL. So who’s the anti-? Consider the 2004 election. I don’t remember a huge number of pro-Kerry people, but everyone and their brother made sure to proclaim they were anti-Bush. And we know how well that strategy worked. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/209 "2005-09-26T00:25:44Z")
> [@zeeny](#): > > Only a semantic nit-pick, really. But what a thoughtful, well-expressed one, **zeeny**. Despite the Google ads brouhaha, will you (pretty please with sugar on it) become a Member? We’re hungry for fresh meat and :o Um, er, what I mean is, this place is always eager for some fresh blood, so :smack: Erm, what I want to say is, I like your style. You’ll make a fine Doper. Will you stick around? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/210 "2005-09-26T01:17:30Z")
[Rally to support Iraq war draws hundreds](http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5301584,00.html) > [@](#): > > "It’s the silent majority,’’ said 22-year-old Stephanie Grgurich of Leesburg, Va. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/211 "2005-09-26T02:02:14Z")
> [@zeeny](#): > > Only a semantic nit-pick, really. > > What you appear to be is an “anti”. Anti-liberal, anti-leftist, anti-criticism of the arrogant, disingenuous, walk in lock-step, chant the talking point, insert roll-eye smiley here, anti-ness. It may **appear** that way to you. To me, this indicates you’re not particularly bright. > [@](#): > > Here’s what troubles me about that. I mean, in addition to the subtle reminders of the beginnings of fascism. Once you’ve weakened or destroyed all the ideas and things and people you are against, what do you do next? Go to Disneyland! Weep that there are no more worlds to conquer? Perfect my fascism by persecuting those loyal to me? Play video games? I dunno, I’m not sure what I’ll do when I’ve destroyed all opposition. Thanks for bringing the question up. Sooner or later, I’ll need to give it some thought. > [@](#): > > How do you manage a large, diverse, superpower country, and what is your vision about the future of that country and the well-being and security of its citizens. With an iron fist? What is this dictator school? > [@](#): > > What message are you sending to the rest of the world? An SOS. I hope that someone gets my. I hope that someone gets my. I hope that someone gets my… message in my bottle. > [@](#): > > And after we’ve digested all the talking points, and the double talk, and the blast-from-the-past Clinton references, and the staged photo-ops… > > What have you got for us? What are you _for_? To quote a “delusional, manipulated, ignorant cow”: “What is your _Noble Cause_?” My opinion of your intelligence (none too high) has dropped further. I don’t recall referring to Ms. Sheehan as you quote me referring to her. I get the feeling you’re not really talking to me. > [@](#): > > No need to literally answer that, as you well know. We are living it as I type this, aren’t we? I’m not exactly sure we share the same consensus reality here, pal. So, no. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/212 "2005-09-26T02:11:56Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Rally to support Iraq war draws hundreds](http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5301584,00.html) Whatever. I think that election results are a tad more important than attendance figures at rallies. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/213 "2005-09-26T02:29:03Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Whatever. I think that election results are a tad more important than attendance figures at rallies. YMMV. Check that. Change “a tad more important” to " a lot more effective". ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/214 "2005-09-26T03:02:00Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Check that. Change “a tad more important” to "… Do-overs? Only the president gets do-overs, **Updike**. How’s that Rita thing working out for him anyway? Is he standing up all tall and studly in your eyes again? Hows that “silent majority” taking it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/215 "2005-09-26T03:04:37Z")
Yeah, sure, but shit happens and things change. Been almost a year now, and GeeDub’s approval ratings are just above approval ratings for goat felching. Whaddaya think? Bottom out at 35%? 30%? Still falling, you know. 25%? ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/216 "2005-09-26T04:59:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Yeah, sure, but shit happens and things change. Been almost a year now, and GeeDub’s approval ratings are just above approval ratings for goat felching. Whaddaya think? Bottom out at 35%? 30%? Still falling, you know. 25%? Yeah, and he’s still the President. Opinion polls matter how much now? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/217 "2005-09-26T07:47:23Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Opinion polls matter how much now? As much as the president’s plan to gut social security. ---
**Author:** ![zeeny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zeeny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeeny)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/218 "2005-09-26T23:54:21Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I get the feeling you’re not really talking to me. That’s funny, because I got the feeling you weren’t really talking to **choie** either. IMO, you were indulging yourself. Picking apart a post in phrases and replying with what you must have believed were clever rejoinders. Either talking to yourself or trying to impress someone else (besides **choie** ) - I wouldn’t know. But it looked like you thought it was fun. So I thought you would understand if I tried the same thing with one of your remarks. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/219 "2005-09-27T00:07:24Z")
> [@zeeny](#): > > That’s funny, because I got the feeling you weren’t really talking to **choie** either. Don’t trust your feelings, they’re not accurate. I responded to things that she said. You made up quotes and pretended that I said them. It’s not nice, and, it’s specifically against the board rules. ---
**Author:** ![zeeny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zeeny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeeny)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071/220 "2005-09-27T00:21:57Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > You made up quotes and pretended that I said them. > > It’s not nice, and, it’s specifically against the board rules. Nice is one thing, but lies are another. I don’t play that way, and claiming I’ve done so is very poor form on your part. I did not make up quotes and attribute them to you. The only time I quoted _you, in particular_ was in a box with your name in it. Is it a case of “can dish it out, but can’t take it”, or do think a mere guest here would be easily duped by your “feigned indignance” routine? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-has-lost-her-ever-loving-mind/322071.md?page=12)