# Cindy Sheehan is a toolbag. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 1, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454 "2006-02-01T02:24:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/361 "2006-02-07T00:12:55Z")
> [@Plynck](#): > > Freudian slip there? No, terrible speller. 🙂 > [@Blalron](#): > > Equate? I doubt that. Invoking comparisons doesn’t mean equating. To say that Bush has done bad things that resemble some bad things that Hitler has done is not to say that he is as bad as Hitler was. Well, use whatever words you like, but if \*\*RTF \*\*can say the Republicans “lumped in” some Dems with al Qaida, then I think it’s fair to say some Dems “equated” Pubs to Hitler. Use “lump in” if you don’t like “equate”. I think my meaning was clear. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/362 "2006-02-07T01:19:16Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > See, you just don’t get it. I’m not saying Dems shouldn’t hang around with her. They can do whatever they want. I’m saying the DON’T hang around with her. Why do you think that is? Most pols will do almost anything to get media attention, and Sheehan is a media magnet. > > I don’t give a shit whether you think she’s a loon or not. But when you claim that the reason Dems don’t embrace her is because of their fear of Limbaugh, et al, then I’m going to call Bullshit. They avoid her because of comments she makes like calling Bush the biggest terrorist in the world, and that puts her outside the mainstream of political discourse in the US. I think you have a point about the Dems in that the current crop is pretty reticent about associating themselves with anything that smacks of controversy. Down here in Texas, we call that being mealy mouthed. They’re a group of fence straddlers for the most part although a few appear to me rediscovering their backbones. But most are still playing Republican Lite in order to court votes. I think they’re being stupid-the right won’t vote for them but neither will the liberals However, the right wing talking heads have done a pretty damn good job of mocking Cindy, quoting her out of context and generally distorting her message. It’s why so many people in this thread are willing to dismiss her as a loon-without ever taking the time to here her speak. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/363 "2006-02-07T01:54:49Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > And some Democrats equate Republicans with Hitler or Nazis, and they’re still in the mainstream of their party. So, what does that tell us? Doesn’t tell me anything without the name of the speaker, and the wording s/he used. > [@](#): > > But I’m not about to give any pol a pass just because he or she might get slammed by Rush or Hannity. If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen. You have of course noticed that this has nothing to do with the argument I’ve been pursuing, but if it makes you happier to say this, then by all means do. > [@](#): > > If you think we should get out of Iraq now, but are too afraid to say so, then move over and let someone with an actual backbone take the reigns. I am less sure what to do about Iraq than I am of what to do about Bush, Cheney, and their crew: impeach, convict, and remove Bush and Cheney from office. I think you’ve noticed that I’m not afraid to speak my mind. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/364 "2006-02-07T02:07:24Z")
I’m still bothered by the posters who made “noise” that Sheehan should have been beat up or thrown down the stairs. I haven’t heard anything lately about her pending lawsuit. Has she filed one yet? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/365 "2006-02-07T02:24:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Doesn’t tell me anything without the name of the speaker, and the wording s/he used. I’ll tell you what… you tell me which Republicans “lumped in” Democrats with al Qaeda, and then I’ll reciprocate with the Nazi references. > [@](#): > > You have of course noticed that this has nothing to do with the argument I’ve been pursuing, but if it makes you happier to say this, then by all means do. Just further comment on the whole business about Democrats being cowed into silence by the attack dogs of the right. If it doesn’t relate to anything you’ve posted, then so be it. > [@](#): > > I am less sure what to do about Iraq than I am of what to do about Bush, Cheney, and their crew: impeach, convict, and remove Bush and Cheney from office. I think you’ve noticed that I’m not afraid to speak my mind. Then you get Hastert as prez and probably Condi as VP. Would that make you feel better? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/366 "2006-02-07T15:20:23Z")
> [@](#): > > **John Mace-** I’ll tell you what… you tell me which Republicans “lumped in” Democrats with al Qaeda, and then I’ll reciprocate with the Nazi references. A case of “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours”? The current administration has done an excellent job of getting the message out that if you do not support Bush’s policies on terror, you are aiding and abetting the terrorists. Don’t believe me? > [@](#): > > Senator Zell Miller, D-Ga., said at the Republican convention that “ **while young Americans are dying in the sands of Iraq and the mountains of Afghanistan, our nation is being torn apart and made weaker because of the Democrats’ manic obsession to bring down our Commander in Chief** ” and reiterated this point in a Wall Street Journal op-ed. Since then, claims that Kerry’s criticism aids terrorists and that terrorists in Al Qaeda or Iraq support Kerry have run rampant, as Dana Milbank showed in the Washington Post. And > [@](#): > > Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt has also echoed this view, stating Sept. 20 that Kerry’s goal of withdrawing US troops during his first term sends “a\*\* clear signal of defeat and retreat to America’s enemies that will make the world a far more dangerous place\*\*.” But wait, there’s more… > [@](#): > > Then, in a December 6, 2001 Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, the Bush administration got into the act. During his opening statement, Attorney General John Ashcroft made the broad accusation that critics of the government who disagreed with its post-9/11 policies were aiding terrorists. “We need honest, reasoned debate and not fear-mongering,” he said. “To those who pit Americans against immigrants, and citizens against non-citizens; to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: \*\*Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America’s enemies, and pause to America’s friends. \*\* They encourage people of good will to remain silent in the face of evil.” And even more! > [@](#): > > In February 2002, Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle was targeted for criticizing President Bush’s use of the phrase “axis of evil” and saying US success in the war on terror “is still somewhat in doubt.” In the first instance, talk show host Rush Limbaugh said, “ **In essence, Daschle has chosen to align himself with the axis of evil** ,” while Fox News commentator Oliver North said Daschle was “setting the ground works for our adversaries to take on American soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines.” And in the latter case, Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va., said Daschle’s “ **divisive comments have the effect of giving aid and comfort to our enemies by allowing them to exploit divisions in our country** ,” while then-Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., added, “ **How dare Senator Daschle criticize President Bush while we are fighting our war on terrorism, especially when we have troops in the field**.” Read enough yet? > [@](#): > > In early 2003, a number of commentators labelled war opponents as “pro-Saddam” in the period immediately before and during the war, including Christopher Hitchens, David Frum, the New York Post, James Taranto of [OpinionJournal.com](http://OpinionJournal.com) and Sullivan. **The New York Sun even went so far as to advocate treason prosecutions of protestors against war with Iraq**. The use of these tactics then largely settled down before returning to the forefront in the past month. (Boldening mine) I apologize for not being able to supply direct references to the dissenting Dems being lumped in with al Qaeda but I don’t think it requires any stretch to see what’s being implied. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/367 "2006-02-07T17:23:26Z")
Can’t forget: > [@](#): > > Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers. –[Karl Rove](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8324598/) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/368 "2006-02-07T19:34:24Z")
You misunderstand, Arty. Clearly, the current state of crisis requires hard headed realism and stern action, qualities that wimpy liberals simply do not possess, but are found in abundance in the Republican Party. Hence, for the security, nay, the very survival of the Republic it is essential that such persons should remain in positions of power and authority for the duration of the crisis. When the present crisis passes, we may again be in a position to lend an ear to the latte-besotted. Unless, of course, some other crisis shall arise, perish the thought. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/369 "2006-02-07T19:37:57Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > I apologize for not being able to supply direct references to the dissenting Dems being lumped in with al Qaeda but I don’t think it requires any stretch to see what’s being implied. Emphasis added. With all due respect, though, that is the issue at hand. Surely you’re not going to ask me to dredge up quotes of commentators comparing Republicans to Nazis? I mean, I’ll do it if you really think there aren’t any. Do you? BTW, Zell Miller is a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/370 "2006-02-07T19:43:36Z")
But let’s look at what the actual issue is. **RTF** ’s claim really came down to the fact that some Republicans make outrageous claims about Democracts, such as lumping them in with al Qaeda, yet they remain within “the mainsteream” of the party. I don’t really dispute that, I just don’t know why it’s particularly interesting since both sides make outrageous claims about the other side, without ejecting the claimants from “the mainstream” of their respective parties. Now, if you want to start a debate about which side makes more outrageous claims, you can count me out. That’s impossible to prove since “outrageous” is so subjective, and it’s just impossible to count all the instances. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/371 "2006-02-07T19:45:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > BTW, Zell Miller is a Democrat. In name only. Real Democrats don’t make a speech at the Republican convention to smear the Democratic nominee. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/372 "2006-02-07T19:46:43Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > In name only. Real Democrats don’t make a speech at the Republican convention to smear the Democratic nominee. A speech so inflammatory that even some Republicans backed away from it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/373 "2006-02-07T19:52:49Z")
Careful there, Bob - he might challenge you to a duel. But to the RW commentariat, Zell Miller isn’t a “loony”, he’s a _keynote speaker_. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/374 "2006-02-07T19:53:48Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > A speech so inflammatory that even some Republicans backed away from it. But it did provide good fodder for SNL. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/375 "2006-02-07T19:59:14Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > In name only. Real Democrats don’t make a speech at the Republican convention to smear the Democratic nominee. Ah yes, not “no true Scotsman” fallacy. If the original statment had been: “Republicans and Democrats who speak at Republican Conventions” then you’d have a point. As it is, you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/376 "2006-02-07T20:05:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You misunderstand, Arty. Clearly, the current state of crisis requires hard headed realism and stern action, qualities that wimpy liberals simply do not possess, but are found in abundance in the Republican Party. Don’t forget Joe Lieberman. He’s on [The Committee for the Present Danger](http://www.fightingterror.org/members/index.cfm), and there are _some_ who call him a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/377 "2006-02-07T20:14:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Careful there, Bob - he might challenge you to a duel. > > But to the RW commentariat, Zell Miller isn’t a “loony”, he’s a _keynote speaker_. I may be getting older, but I think I can take on old Zell. John, I don’t understand the reference to the “no true Scotsman” logical fallacy. How is it a fallacy to state that a real Democrat wouldn’t make a keynote speech at the RNC to smear the Democratic nominee? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/378 "2006-02-07T20:21:55Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I may be getting older, but I think I can take on old Zell. > > John, I don’t understand the reference to the “no true Scotsman” logical fallacy. How is it a fallacy to state that a real Democrat wouldn’t make a keynote speech at the RNC to smear the Democratic nominee? The answer to this one should be good. Not only do we get to ride off on another tangent, **John** gets to avoid admitting that, yes, several Republicans did lump dissenters of the Iraq war in with terrorists. Win/win! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/379 "2006-02-07T20:49:29Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > John, I don’t understand the reference to the “no true Scotsman” logical fallacy. How is it a fallacy to state that a real Democrat wouldn’t make a keynote speech at the RNC to smear the Democratic nominee? Because he is a Democrat and not a Repulbican. You might think he isn’t a “real Democrat”, but that doesn’t make him a Republican, which is what we were talking about. Otherwise, I’ll say Hillary isn’t a real Democrat because she’s co-sponsering an anti-flag burning law. Or that Arlen Specter isn’t a “real Republcan” because he’s pro-choice. Or that Chaffee isn’t a “real Republican” because he voted against Alito. See how it works? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454/380 "2006-02-07T20:50:30Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > … **John** gets to avoid admitting that, yes, several Republicans did lump dissenters of the Iraq war in with terrorists. Win/win! No, I’m still waiting for the examples. Got any? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cindy-sheehan-is-a-toolbag/342454.md?page=20)