# Circa when did the word Indian came be used for native populations ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 10, 2017, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260 "2017-08-10T14:59:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/21 "2017-08-10T19:42:41Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well hell. Not that I really looked or anything, but I always thought everyone knew he didn’t make it to Asia when he went back to Spain the first time. In a classic case of confirmation bias, Columbus interpreted everything he saw as indicating he was in Asia. He was puzzled by the lack of high civilizations (in the regions he found) but was always convinced that Japan and China must be just a few islands over. On his fourth voyage in 1502-1504 he sailed down the coast of Central America searching for the Straits of Malacca so he could finally sail east to India. Other explorers began to have their doubts fairly soon, but it was Vespucci who widely promoted the idea of a new continent. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/22 "2017-08-10T19:50:27Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Why would they? Only other explorers of the regions, like Vespucci, would be able to question Columbus’ assumption. Well, I don’t know. I guess I never put much thought into the time frames of when it was commonly known it wasn’t India or China or whatever. Cool, learned something today. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/23 "2017-08-10T19:51:23Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I mean, sure, Columbus realized he wasn’t hitting the rich cities he knew existed in India and Cathay. But there were supposed to be a lot of islands in “the indies” and it was reasonable to expect that those peripheral lands were poorer than the cities stuffed with the riches of the orient. So finding what we now call the “West Indies” and expecting them to be the islands we call the “East Indies” isn’t that surprising. Other than being thousands and thousands of miles farther east than they should be, that is. When Magellan finally reached the Far East by sailing west in 1521, he first encountered the Mariana Islands and the Philippines. These islands weren’t too far off in their level of civilization from what Columbus found in the West Indies. But the Spanish were eventually able to make their way to the Spice Islands (Moluccas) and to the higher civilizations to the west. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/24 "2017-08-10T19:53:00Z")
The 14th century was the 1300’s, ending in 1400. So Columbus, 15th century, etc. Columbus promoted the idea (a contrary ancient Greek calculation) that the world was only about 4500 miles diameter, not 8000. Therefore, taking into account Marco Polo’s travel journal, the distance west to the Indies and China should be about 3,000 miles. he was soundly rejected because the educated elite believed the majority view, that the earth was 8000 miles diameter and China was 12,000 miles or more west, beyond the reach of the vessels of the time. Spain decided to take a chance because Portugal was monopolizing the eastward circum-African route. He found a land with brown-skinned occupants, but not with the eyes characteristic of China, so it must be the other side of India. Having had his successes, he did not really want to admit he was wrong. Further exploration gradually showed that this was not at all India or China. IIRC Amerigo Vespucci’s name stuck to the new continents because he was one of the first to proclaim that these were different, new continents. However, by then the name “Indians” for the locals, and “Indies” for the island chain, had already stuck. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/25 "2017-08-10T21:31:39Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The use of “Indian” in English to refer to the inhabitants of the Americas is[attested to from 1553](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Indian) as a noun, following Spanish and Portuguese use of _indio_. Thanks Colibri. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/26 "2017-08-10T22:51:41Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The 14th century was the 1300’s, ending in 1400. So Columbus, 15th century, etc. > > Columbus promoted the idea (a contrary ancient Greek calculation) that the world was only about 4500 miles diameter, not 8000. Therefore, taking into account Marco Polo’s travel journal, the distance west to the Indies and China should be about 3,000 miles. he was soundly rejected because the educated elite believed the majority view, that the earth was 8000 miles diameter and China was 12,000 miles or more west, beyond the reach of the vessels of the time. Spain decided to take a chance because Portugal was monopolizing the eastward circum-African route. He found a land with brown-skinned occupants, but not with the eyes characteristic of China, so it must be the other side of India. Having had his successes, he did not really want to admit he was wrong. Further exploration gradually showed that this was not at all India or China. > > IIRC Amerigo Vespucci’s name stuck to the new continents because he was one of the first to proclaim that these were different, new continents. However, by then the name “Indians” for the locals, and “Indies” for the island chain, had already stuck. Emphasis added. Do you have a cite for this? American Indians look more like Chinese than they do Indians from India (assuming Columbus would even know the difference). I have not heard that Columbus called the people “Indians” because he thought the looked like Indians, but that he thought he was in India. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/27 "2017-08-11T00:45:40Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > “Indian” doesn’t imply a generic native population. It only refers to native people from the Americas who were initially mistakenly identified by Columbus as from India, and to native people actually from India. > > Native people from from other parts of the world are not called Indians. Except those from India, of course. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/28 "2017-08-11T00:46:41Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Except those from India, of course. And not even all of them, depending on the context! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/29 "2017-08-11T03:00:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I have not heard that Columbus called the people “Indians” because he thought the looked like Indians, but that he thought he was in India. At least in his first letter, Columbus provides no real physical description of the Indians, except to say that they are “well built and of handsome stature,” wear their hair long, and are not “negroes as in Guinea.” In his letter, Columbus does not attempt to prove he reached India. He just accepts as a given that he had reached the Indies, since there was land where he expected to find them. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/30 "2017-08-11T03:08:14Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > If the latter was (is) true, then when did that practice start ? As soon as another dude led a team. The realization that Columbus hadn’t reached Asia (1) came after several trips, both his own and others’. 1: not just India; _las Indias Orientales_ refers to India and SE Asia, all the way to the Philippines. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/31 "2017-08-11T04:51:03Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Except those from India, of course. Read the first paragraph again. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/32 "2017-08-11T12:37:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. Do you have a cite for this? American Indians look more like Chinese than they do Indians from India (assuming Columbus would even know the difference). I have not heard that Columbus called the people “Indians” because he thought the looked like Indians, but that he thought he was in India. Good question -worthy of its own thread or hijack… How likely that Columbus, a career sailor in the Mediterranean, would have seen Orientals or Indians from India? I’m guessing there were a small number of the latter in some eastern ports. Did the locals make a point of genocide of the ruling Mongolians when they removed the empire of Genghis Khan, or would a few surviving ethnics be found in Turkey and Lebanon? I haven’t read what Marco Polo wrote describing the various ethnic groups encountered along the way to China. How much did the west know about general geography? They were vaguely aware that China sat facing an ocean to the east, I assume; and that India was south of China and parts were a bit closer. By the 1490’s did they really know about Indonesia? Certainly not the Philippines. (OTOH, Islam had spread as far as the Philippines so there must have been some vague descriptions floating around about the geography.) Ignoring “yellow man” crap, and the fact that China is a vast country with many ethnic types, Chinese from the Chinese empire were whiter than many Caucasians in southern Europe, whereas South Asians were noticeably browner in general. Would Columbus have known this? I always assumed the colour of the locals and the southern latitude was why he assumed he’d hit outlying India, not China. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/33 "2017-08-11T13:17:07Z")
So why did you say it was the shape of their eyes in your earlier post? Anyway, I thought you might have a cite, but it appears not. As noted, Columbus thought he was in India, hence he called the locals Indians. He didn’t first think the locals looked like folks from India and the figure out he was in that country. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/34 "2017-08-11T13:51:35Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > At least in his first letter, Columbus provides no real physical description of the Indians, except to say that they are “well built and of handsome stature,” wear their hair long, and are not “negroes as in Guinea.” > > In his letter, Columbus does not attempt to prove he reached India. He just accepts as a given that he had reached the Indies, since there was land where he expected to find them. > [@Nava](#): > > 1: not just India; _las Indias Orientales_ refers to India and SE Asia, all the way to the Philippines. Right, that’s another point – “The Indies” was not one specific nation or place, it was the entirety of South and Southeast Asia and at the time the Westerners had but the foggiest notion of how spread out that was, especially if you throw in Columbus’ crank numbers for the distances involved. And it is interesting that physical depiction of the natives basically as “they are not negroes”. Seems he’s saying, I’m pretty sure I did not hit the other side of Africa instead. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/35 "2017-08-11T14:45:37Z")
On Jacques Cartier’s second voyage down the St. Lawrence, he went as far as he could until he hit rapids. The place he landed he named La Chine (China) and there is a town called Lachine there today. Also the Lachine Rapids. This was in 1535 so the idea that this was a new continent still hadn’t taken hold everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/36 "2017-08-11T14:55:13Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Ignoring “yellow man” crap, and the fact that China is a vast country with many ethnic types, Chinese from the Chinese empire were whiter than many Caucasians in southern Europe, whereas South Asians were noticeably browner in general. Would Columbus have known this? I always assumed the colour of the locals and the southern latitude was why he assumed he’d hit outlying India, not China. Columbus’s log contains somewhat more detailed descriptions of the people. October 12, 1492. > [@](#): > > All whom I saw were young, not above thirty years of age, well made, with fine shapes and faces; their hair short, and coarse like that of a horse’s tail, combed toward the forehead, except a small portion which they suffer to hang down behind, and never cut. Some paint themselves with black, which makes them appear like those of the Canaries, neither black nor white; others with white, others with red, and others with such colors as they can find. Some paint the face, and some the whole body; others only the eyes, and others the nose. > [@](#): > > They are all of a good size and stature, and handsomely formed. I saw some with scars of wounds upon their bodies, and demanded by signs the of them; they answered me in the same way, that there came people from the other islands in the neighborhood who endeavored to make prisoners of them, and they defended themselves. I thought then, and still believe, that these were from the continent. By “the continent” Columbus evidently means the mainland of Asia. October 13 > [@](#): > > At daybreak great multitudes of men came to the shore, all young and of fine shapes, very handsome; their hair not curled but straight and coarse like horse-hair, and all with foreheads and heads much broader than any people I had hitherto seen; their eyes were large and very beautiful; they were not black, but the color of the inhabitants of the Canaries, which is a very natural circumstance, they being in the same latitude with the island of Ferro in the Canaries. They were straight-limbed without exception, and not with prominent bellies but handsomely shaped. Columbus adds: > [@](#): > > I am determined to proceed onward and ascertain whether I can reach Cipango. October 21 > [@](#): > > Afterwards I shall set sail for another very large island which I believe to be Cipango, according to the indications I receive from the Indians on board. They call the Island Colba, and say there are many large ships, and sailors there. This other island they name Bosio, and inform me that it is very large; the others which lie in our course, I shall examine on the passage, and according as I find gold or spices in abundance, I shall determine what to do; at all events I am determined to proceed on to the continent, and visit the city of Guisay, where I shall deliver the letters of your Highnesses to the Great Can, and demand an answer, with which I shall return. “Cipango” was the name used for Japan. So Columbus had clearly concluded he was somewhere near it by his second day in the West Indies. And he thought he was within reach of the domains of the Great Khan in China. So Columbus attributed the brown color of the people to the latitude. But he also knew he was still well east of India itself (since Japan was known to be east of India). He just believed that he was in some unknown part of the “Indies.” He had no clear idea of how far he might be from Japan or China but thought they were within a fairly short sail. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/37 "2017-08-11T17:18:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Are you thinking that the term “Indian” was used to refer to native populations _outside the Americas_? I’m not aware that it was used that way. > [@Lemur866](#): > > “Indian” doesn’t imply a generic native population. It only refers to native people from the Americas who were initially mistakenly identified by Columbus as from India, and to native people actually from India. > > Native people from from other parts of the world are not called Indians. Fairly trivial and peripheral; but I recall reading, quite a long time ago, a novel about Britain’s first tentatively beginning to settle in Australia, 200+ years ago. Novel – by Thomas Kenneally?? – struck me as solid and well-researched and likely accurate, not phoned-in trash: it had the Brits referring to their local Aborigines, as “Indians”. This could, of course, have been the author’s giving his imagination a bit of play; and even if it was historically accurate for the time, it would plainly have been a term which did not last long in those parts. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/38 "2017-08-11T17:29:41Z")
The Caribbean islands are still called the West Indies, but Columbus never landed in North America. How did Columbus’s label of “Indian” get expanded to places nowhere near where Columbus ever went? e.g. Plains Indians? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/39 "2017-08-11T18:06:21Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > The Caribbean islands are still called the West Indies, but Columbus never landed in North America. How did Columbus’s label of “Indian” get expanded to places nowhere near where Columbus ever went? e.g. Plains Indians? What a fascinating question. Perhaps you should start a thread about that. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260/40 "2017-08-11T18:55:53Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > The Caribbean islands are still called the West Indies, but Columbus never landed in North America. How did Columbus’s label of “Indian” get expanded to places nowhere near where Columbus ever went? e.g. Plains Indians? Because everyone started calling the folks on the islands “Indians”. And even when people were pretty sure this wasn’t India, they still kept calling them Indians. And when they moved from the islands to the mainland like Mexico, they kept calling them Indians. And when people who weren’t even Spanish started arriving on the East Coast of North America, they called the people there “Indians” because that’s what people in the Americas were now called, even though everyone knew for sure this wasn’t India. The word “Indian” had come to mean “the inhabitants of the new continent we’re exploring and invading”, rather than “a person from India”. And that practice continues to this very day, despite the fact that we’ve known for literally 500 years that the Americas are not India. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circa-when-did-the-word-indian-came-be-used-for-native-populations/793260.md?page=3)