# Circumcision - advice sought **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830 "2009-05-27T18:54:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/81 "2009-05-30T19:00:57Z")
I think that we should separate the reasons for a man to be circumcised from the reasons for a boy to be circumcised. After all, an uncircumcised adult or teenager can always elect to be circumcised, so any benefit that occurs in adulthood is not dependent the circumcision having been performed shortly after birth. People have mentioned, for example, that being circumcised reduces a man’s risk of contracting HIV. How relevant those numbers are to any particular man is open to interpretation, but I’ll go out on a limb and say that circumcision does not reduce the risk of contracting HIV for boys who are too young to be sexually active anyway. More relevant to this discussion are the benefits of circumcision to a child. If circumcision reduces or increases (both have been asserted in this thread) the risk of serious urinary tract infections in, say, 5-year-olds, then that is certainly relevant. If it reduces or increases the risk of serious urinary tract infections in 40-year-olds but not in children, then it’s not really a compelling reason to have an infant circumcised. So, how do the benefits and drawbacks of circumcision performed shortly after birth stack up against the benefits and drawbacks of circumcision performed at age 13 or 18 or 33? ---
**Author:** ![palacheck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a88e57/32.png) [@palacheck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palacheck)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/82 "2009-05-31T01:21:52Z")
As an uncircumcised male I can say that it feels DAMN good, and I last as long as I want to last, and always have. And I would laugh at any woman that complained about a freshly washed penis still holding onto any bad smells. And I would probably make fun of her stank vagina afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/83 "2009-05-31T01:38:33Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > Since you have a son, I’m going to assume you have had sex at least once. > > As you may have noticed, it’s really rather fun. Probably the most fun thing outside of heroin. And your actions have meant that it will always be slightly less enjoyable for him than it could otherwise have been. > > Now, I don’t think that you are a bad person for this, as I’m sure you had the best of intentions, but it is still a mind numbingly evil thing to do, not terribly dissimilar to cutting his dick off. That would result in even less penile cancer and make getting STDs practically impossible. :rolleyes: That’s gotta be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read here in a thread without “9/11” or “Showgirls” in the title. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/84 "2009-05-31T02:27:24Z")
I went through these arguments about 30 years ago when my son was born. The arguments on both sides were made by people emotionally attached. I saw both sides and washed my hands of the whole thing. My wife was convinced it should not be done. So it was not. I still don’t know if there is a definitive answer. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/85 "2009-05-31T03:12:01Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > Since you have a son, I’m going to assume you have had sex at least once. Wow > [@Angry Lurker](#): > > Now, I don’t think that you are a bad person for this, as I’m sure you had the best of intentions, but it is still a mind numbingly evil thing to do, not terribly dissimilar to cutting his dick off. Double wow. You must be a hoot at parties. kudos to your choice of name. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/86 "2009-05-31T10:53:03Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > I think that we should separate the reasons for a man to be circumcised from the reasons for a boy to be circumcised. After all, an uncircumcised adult or teenager can always elect to be circumcised, so any benefit that occurs in adulthood is not dependent the circumcision having been performed shortly after birth. > > People have mentioned, for example, that being circumcised reduces a man’s risk of contracting HIV. How relevant those numbers are to any particular man is open to interpretation, but I’ll go out on a limb and say that circumcision does not reduce the risk of contracting HIV for boys who are too young to be sexually active anyway. > > More relevant to this discussion are the benefits of circumcision to a child. If circumcision reduces or increases (both have been asserted in this thread) the risk of serious urinary tract infections in, say, 5-year-olds, then that is certainly relevant. If it reduces or increases the risk of serious urinary tract infections in 40-year-olds but not in children, then it’s not really a compelling reason to have an infant circumcised. > > So, how do the benefits and drawbacks of circumcision performed shortly after birth stack up against the benefits and drawbacks of circumcision performed at age 13 or 18 or 33? I agree that this is the real question to ask (and the answer is pretty damn obvious). The supposed benefits of circumcision are neither overwhelming nor very time sensitive. So what reason is there for you to take your son out of the decision making loop for this personal choice? After all it’s his body, and if your son does weigh the options and decides to get circumcised at 14, there is the added benefit of 14 years more research and progress in the field of circumcision research. Now the absolute worst argument I’ve heard against this is that they might as well get the painful procedure out of the way so he doesn’t remember it. Just because the grown man doesn’t remember the pain doesn’t mean it never was experienced. When I die (and dead is what I’ll be for most of time), I won’t remember all the pain of my life today so in the grand scheme of things, I shouldn’t really give a fuck about the toe I stubbed yesterday. Why do I care what happens to me today? That’s because the present is important to all of us, babies with a sore and bleeding penis included. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/87 "2009-05-31T11:05:33Z")
The only reason I was circumcised was to sort out my phimosis once and for all when other procedures did not work. I come from Britain, so it’s likely different, but I was more concerned that being circumcised would make me different than the other way round. Why have so many people being circumcised here? Quite surprising. I personally recoil at the thought of doing it to babies/kids. Seems a bit perverse to my mind, sorry if that offends anyone. Let them choose. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/88 "2009-05-31T13:26:47Z")
> [@Mojo\_Pin](#): > > I agree that this is the real question to ask (and the answer is pretty damn obvious). The supposed benefits of circumcision are neither overwhelming nor very time sensitive. As I noted upthread, the anti-cancer effects of circumcision are apparently only applicable to neonatal circumcision and being circumcised in adult life has little effect. You might think that this isn’t enough benefit to warrant neonatal circumcision but, if one is leaning towards having it done for health reasons, they should be aware of the full range of health implications including diminished returns for delayed circumcision. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/89 "2009-05-31T13:54:09Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > … Why have so many people being circumcised here? My understanding is that it is a result of military circumcision during WWI and II. Societally circumcision was already becoming a marker of higher SES and was being culturally associated with being “clean” - American physicians at the time were very convinced of the medical benefits and military being what it was in that day imposed circumcision upon _many_ soldiers as adults. Those men came home, have not enjoyed having the procedure done as an adult, and decided that they want their newborn boys to avoid having to have procedure done as an adult - circumcision rates in America went from about 25% to over 60% in a generation and became American norm. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/90 "2009-06-17T10:27:05Z")
I just wanted to come back to this thread and thank you all for sharing your opinions and experiences with us - in the end, we didn’t get baby Nathan circumcised, although not for any lofty ideal. As an elective procedure, circumcsision is not covered by our medical aid, and as we have just finished renovating our house and with **Pixie** on maternity leave, we just couldn’t afford the R1000 (approx $125) it would have cost us. We were probably leaning in that direction anyway, but this was the final shove we needed to help us decide… Thanks all Grim ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/91 "2009-06-17T14:17:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There’s a certain logic to letting the child decide. … Yes, there is a certain logic to it. But… Honestly, I don’t know the best answer to this, but as a grown man with a penis, there is NO WAY ON EARTH I’m gonna let someone take a knife to it. I am circumcised. If that turns out to be the best thing (health wise or sex wise), great, and I’m grateful my parents made the right choice. But if I wasn’t circumcised, and it turns out that I would be better off circumcised, it just wouldn’t happen. Unless it was a matter of life and death – and maybe not even then. So – that stuff about “let the child decide later…” – just be aware there will be a VERY strong bias against voluntary later, IMO. Actually, I’m gonna do a thread asking if anyone’s got it done voluntarily. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/92 "2009-06-18T02:29:32Z")
Ethically, it’s all the same to me - circ, don’t circ, very little chance it will make a difference in the kid’s life, his sex life, his body image, ect. However, if you choose to circ, PLEASE MAKE SURE THAT THE DOC NUMBS THE SITE! We’ve got a doc at my hospital who does circumcisions without numbing because he doesn’t think it matters. \*Insist \*on numbing. It does matter. -signed, Nurse who almost fainted while watching a circumcision. Edit to add - the doc who does the circs without numbing doesn’t usually mention it to the parents. Talk to the doc beforehand. Edit to add that I somehow skipped the OP replying two posts above me. Go me. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/93 "2009-06-18T02:42:10Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Honestly, I don’t know the best answer to this, but as a grown man with a penis, there is NO WAY ON EARTH I’m gonna let someone take a knife to it. > > I am circumcised. If that turns out to be the best thing (health wise or sex wise), great, and I’m grateful my parents made the right choice. > > But if I wasn’t circumcised, and it turns out that I would be better off circumcised, it just wouldn’t happen. Unless it was a matter of life and death – and maybe not even then. I’ve known several men who had the misfortune to require penis surgery of one sort or another (from circumcision to what was essentially reconstruction) as adults and while none of them were at all happy about the situation, apparently all were in enough distress from the problem at hand to go under the knife, and in some cases they were _begging_ for it, as being constantly in pain from their genitals had become intolerable. I think that if you were in the same situation you’d rather quickly come to some accommodation with the idea. > [@](#): > > So – that stuff about “let the child decide later…” – just be aware there will be a VERY strong bias against voluntary later, IMO. If you aren’t willing to do it to your adult self why would it be OK to do it to an infant? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/94 "2009-06-18T08:03:55Z")
I’m often brought to tears whenever I think how much marginally better having an orgasm would be if I wasn’t mutilated as a child. To rectify this I’ve begun to tape weights to my shaft and liberally apply moisturizing lotions to my penis. I feel like an outcast, a weirdo…like I’m less of a man. I’m not normal, and I blame my parents for that. If circumcision has done anything positive in my life, it probably enabled me to study more as a teen. Otherwise I would’ve been doing homework in 15 minute intervals like the kids in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/95 "2009-06-18T14:01:22Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If you aren’t willing to do it to your adult self why would it be OK to do it to an infant? This always struck me as an unconvincing argument. After all, there are other cases in which parents medically intervene in their kid’s bodies in ways those same kids would probably not do as adults - think of cosmetic orthodontia. It is a lot easier to do when the child is young and not yet fully developed. Why would one wait untill the teeth had all grown in, and _then_ put on the braces? At that point in life orthodontic intervention would be a more serious business. Similarly, in the case of circumcision, the adult penis is not the same as an infants’, and waiting for the organ to grow to its adult state isn’t the same as not waiting. To give a basic example, the health benefits alleged for infant circumcision are more significant than those alleged for adult circumcision. The “wait until they are adult and then they will decide” isn’t a real option, it is the equivalent of ‘don’t do it’. The implied moral censure (that parents have no business making such decisions on behalf of their infants) is I think unjustified, as the moral imperative of parenting is precisely to make such decisions - based on the best interests of the child. To my mind, any parent who evaluates the evidence and makes a decision that is within the realm of reasonableness is beyond reproach on these grounds - an certainly infant male circumcision isn’t outside the realm of the reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/96 "2009-06-18T15:44:18Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’ve known several men who had the misfortune to require penis surgery of one sort or another (from circumcision to what was essentially reconstruction) as adults and while none of them were at all happy about the situation, apparently all were in enough distress from the problem at hand to go under the knife, and in some cases they were _begging_ for it, as being constantly in pain from their genitals had become intolerable. I think that if you were in the same situation you’d rather quickly come to some accommodation with the idea… Yeah, but you’re talking about undergoing one type of penis pain to relieve another type of penis pain. That, I could do. BUT, subject my penis to a knoke just to avoid dying??? Er, not so sure… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/97 "2009-06-18T22:50:38Z")
Maybe not you, but there are forums on the internet where perfectly healthy adult men with completely functional penises have subjected them to\* \>cough\< \*modification FAR more radical that mere circumcision. Apparently for their own amusement. Without anesthesia. Which makes me cross my legs and wince, even if I am a girl. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/98 "2009-06-18T23:30:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This always struck me as an unconvincing argument. After all, there are other cases in which parents medically intervene in their kid’s bodies in ways those same kids would probably not do as adults - think of cosmetic orthodontia. It is a lot easier to do when the child is young and not yet fully developed. Why would one wait untill the teeth had all grown in, and _then_ put on the braces? At that point in life orthodontic intervention would be a more serious business. I’ve known adults who got orthodontic braces in their 30’s and 40’s. If they had children with equally crooked teeth I could see them getting the kids braces early. In other words, it’s something adults willingly undergo, so imposing it on younger people isn’t so outrageous. Also, adults getting braces for their kids frequently had them and remember having them as well, so they know exactly what they are subjecting their children to. Whereas we have had a few men chime in here that, barring medical issues, they would NOT subject their adult selves to circumcision – in which case how can they justfiy subjecting a _baby_ to the procedure without clear medical need? ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/99 "2009-06-18T23:32:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > There is no evidence for this statement and some evidence against it. > > Such as [this study](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18761593?ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)And [this one](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17419812?ordinalpos=16&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)And [this one](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15833526?ordinalpos=26&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)And it goes on … enough to conclude that, no, circumcision does not make sex less enjoyable, and that if you have a sexual dysfunction you are mistaken to blame it on your parents’ choice to have you circ’ed as a baby. What these studies say is that there is no difference in glans sensitivity between circumcised and non-circumcised men. From my experience actual sexual intercourse is more pleasurable with a foreskin than without. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830/100 "2009-06-19T02:18:31Z")
> [@Dog80](#): > > What these studies say is that there is no difference in glans sensitivity between circumcised and non-circumcised men. From my experience actual sexual intercourse is more pleasurable with a foreskin than without. Did you actually open up more than one of those links? From the first: > [@](#): > > MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: (i) Sexual function between circumcised and uncircumcised men; and (ii) sexual satisfaction and pleasure over time following circumcision. RESULTS: … Compared to before they were circumcised, 64.0% of circumcised men reported their penis was “much more sensitive,” and 54.5% rated their ease of reaching orgasm as “much more” at month 24. CONCLUSIONS: Adult male circumcision was not associated with sexual dysfunction. Circumcised men reported increased penile sensitivity and enhanced ease of reaching orgasm. So no, that is not what “these studies say”; that is what one of those studies said. Of course your mileage may vary and personal anecdotes of course are almost so much more convincing than scientific studies published in a peer reviewed journal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-advice-sought/497830.md?page=6)