# Circumcision and a perfect God.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390 "2004-09-21T23:44:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390/21 "2004-09-24T02:09:57Z")
> [@carolynnjulie](#): > > I think you are right. I have been a life long Christian, and circumcision(male or female) has no connection with our relgion. Don’t be so quick to throw around that “our religion…” 🙂 > [@](#): > > I thought that male circumcision was only jewish law/custom, Law, not custom. > [@](#): > > I was told that female circumcision is now illegal for babies in the United States, Well, to equate “female circumcision” (which is a misnomer) with male circumcision is like comparing a splinter with a cannonball wound. > [@](#): > > and hopefully male circumcision of babies will also someday be illegal. Let’s hope not, thank you very much. Incidentally, we recently covered this whole debate not to long ago. You can find it [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=263883). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390/22 "2004-09-24T03:16:48Z")
> [@carolynnjulie](#): > > … hopefully male circumcision of babies will also someday be illegal. It is extremely painful for babies. > > Once you are 18 though, you should be free to get yourself circumcised, tattoed, or pierced. I don’t want to unleash another circumcision debate, so let me just say that in the view of many (though certainly not _all_) pediatricians, physicians, and epidemiologists, infant male circumcision is clearly the wisest course. Only infant male circumcision reduces UTI risk and its consequent dangers and completely eliminates the possibility of penile cancer, for some examples. Circumcision later in life is far more painful and is significantly less effective in preventing disease. A parent who wishes the best outcomes for their son will circumcise their son as an infant; to do otherwise is at least _somewhat_ irresponsible. To advocate otherwise is roughly equivalent to arguing that parents should wait until the child is 18 to immunize him! ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390/23 "2004-09-24T03:23:28Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > I don’t want to unleash another circumcision debate, so let me just say that in the view of many (though certainly not _all_) pediatricians, physicians, and epidemiologists, infant male circumcision is clearly the wisest course. Only infant male circumcision reduces UTI risk and its consequent dangers and completely eliminates the possibility of penile cancer, for some examples. Circumcision later in life is far more painful and is significantly less effective in preventing disease. > > A parent who wishes the best outcomes for their son will circumcise their son as an infant; to do otherwise is at least _somewhat_ irresponsible. To advocate otherwise is roughly equivalent to arguing that parents should wait until the child is 18 to immunize him! That’s it, now you’ve done it… 😃 :: hear the rumbling in the distance :: :: running and hiding in fear of another circ debate :: Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390/24 "2004-09-24T03:45:06Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > \*Or so I’m assuming. I’ve never (to my recollection) had pork. Oh, it’s delicious.\* 😃 Too bad your beliefs don’t permit it. This reminds me of the joke of the [Rabbi and the Priest](http://www.yourjokes.net/Religious%20Jokes--Ham%20Sandwich.html) . > [@](#): > > \*\*A priest and a rabbi are sitting next to each other on an airplane. After a while the priest turns to the rabbi and asks, “Is it still a requirement of your faith that you not eat pork?” > > The rabbi responds, “Yes, that is still one of our beliefs.” > > The priest then asks, “Have you ever eaten pork?” > > To which the rabbi replies, “Yes, on one occasion I did succumb To temptation and tasted a ham sandwich.” > > The priest nodded in understanding and went on with his reading. A while later, the rabbi spoke up and asked the priest, “Father, is it still a requirement of your church that you remain celibate?” > > The priest replied, “Yes, that is still very much a part of our faith.” > > The rabbi then asked him, “Father, have you ever fallen to the temptations of the flesh?” > > The priest replied, “Yes, rabbi, on one occasion I was weak and broke with my faith.” > > The rabbi nodded understandingly. He was silent for about five minutes, and then he said, > > “Beats the hell out of a ham sandwich, doesn’t it?”\*\* \*Confession: I’m really not all that crazy about pork. If I had to go my entire life without it, it really wouldn’t be a sacrifice. ;j ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390/25 "2004-09-24T03:47:40Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > That’s it, now you’ve done it… 😃 > > :: hear the rumbling in the distance :: > :: running and hiding in fear of another circ debate :: > > Zev Steinhardt Yep, this is way off course for this thread, isn’t it? And just when I felt like we were getting somewhere with the interesting stuff. I appreciate your attempt to speak out on an issue you feel strongly about, but maybe it would be better to start a new thread on the medical issues surrounding infant circumcision so we can focus on the perfection/imperfection of humans and gods issue here. (IANAMod, just someone who got whiplash with the hijack) ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390/26 "2004-09-24T03:58:32Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > See, here’s where I fall prey to the same questions as I think the OP was trying to ask. If you believe that the Creative Spirit made us perfect, then what about deformed babies? What about miscarriages? I can concur with your statement insofar as I do recognize that \*most \* of our damage, we do to ourselves. But right now, I’m babysitting a little 3 month old baby who’s just been discovered to have one half of his pelvis growing faster than the other. Is this because his mother or I have “sullied him” or because he isn’t living up to his given perfection? > > I’m not trying to be snarky here. I really want to know how this is reconciled. I haven’t been able to do so, hence my belief (and yes, it’s belief and faith) that we’re created imperfect. (And I do so with full belief and faith in a Divine Power, so I’m not, for one, coming at this from a “prove God exists” stance.) I thought it important to leave your entire post, to aid understanding. If I hadn’t been corrupted, by my culture, learning and environment, I might be able to give you a better answer, but I’m still striving to reach my God-given perfection (it’s taking longer than I thought ☹ ). But I’m not copping out. I was born with a body that, in a minor way, would not live up to a human biologist’s definition of a ‘perfect human body.’ But, I think God made me perfect just the way I was. He/She (wish we had a gender neutral singular personal pronoun) made me in a way that would give me necessary challenges, motivate me in the right ways and give me all the tools I needed to… uh… become. become whatever it is that is my highest level of perfection. I don’t think I’ve made it yet, but I’ve seen some interesting signposts. 😃 Sometimes things like miscarriages, abortions, birth defects may be more for the parents than the individual. This starts getting into “the mysterious ways of God” and I don’t want to get too deep into that, for how can we know God’s intention until we realize _our_ perfection? And yes, this is a matter of faith for me. Through a revelation some years ago (personal? divine? I don’t know except it was a sudden reversal of my earlier thinking) I came to the conclusion that ‘there are no mistakes in the Universe.’ I’m not sure that “mistakes” is quite the right word; it’s kinda hard to translate what I heard into English. Maybe it’s no errors, or nothing unplanned, or whatever. Anyway, the idea is that all is a part of a huge interaction, and nothing happens without some reason for it to happen. It was hard for me to swallow at first, but as time went on I saw that, in my case anyway, it held true. Things that seemed perplexing when they happened, made sense a few years down the road. It might just be 20-20 hindsight, but I’m choosing to think not, as a matter of faith in the source of the revelation. Imagine that child you are babysitting. Perhaps the doctors think she/he is imperfect, but then look at what this child is doing to the parents, the doctors, and to you. Perhaps this child is fulfilling a greater purpose than just being a perfect Gerber™ Baby. I think this child is teaching you. Open your heart for the lesson. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390/27 "2004-09-24T04:09:24Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Is it your opinion that a quick snip of some useless skin sullies our given perfection? Ever had a tooth pulled or your appendix cut out? Teeth yes, appendix, no. Other bodily parts (“parts is parts, Vern!”), yes, misc. Foreskin, yes, and I don’t think that sullied me or anyone else. Some of our teachings? Yes I think we have been sullied, but the details there rightly belong to another thread. If a child has dreams these days and those dreams turn out to happen a few days later, many would come down on that child in order to try to repress that God-given ability. "Does not your scripture say, “Ye are gods?” “Whatsoever I do, so ye too, can do. And greater things than these can you do.” vs. “Johnny! Cut that out! You can’t do healing, only Jesus could do that.” and “All that religion is just old superstition.” and “UriGeller bending forks? Haw, haw, haw! People don’t have spiritual abilities!” The OP asked if it was _necessary_ to be circumcised to be perfect, not whether physical acts sullied a person’s perfection. I don’t think these kinds of things make one more perfect or less perfect. S ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390/28 "2004-09-24T06:06:09Z")
**SnakeSpirit** , post #26 is particularly of interest to me. I hear what you are saying and share your thinking. I’ve just begun reading _Living Buddha, Living Christ_ by Thich Nhat Hanh, a Vietnamese monk with a respect for Christian teachings. What you said reminds me of some things he has written over the years about the inner-connectedness of things. In my own opinion, it is sort of an extention of the New Testament teaching of how all things work together for the good. But I think that “all things” would have to include our imperfections – and that is something that Nhat writes about. Anyway, I think you would find his books interesting and meaty. Pax ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390/29 "2004-09-24T06:21:38Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Is it your opinion that a quick snip of some useless skin sullies our given perfection? Ever had a tooth pulled or your appendix cut out? Which religions recommend that their members all extract teeth or apendixes? The OP is talking about doing something because you’re told god finds favor in it, not for medical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390/30 "2004-09-24T06:48:29Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Anyway, I think you would find his books interesting and meaty. > > Pax I’ll bet you’re right. _ **ON** _ my reading list. Thanks. Sssssss ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390/31 "2004-09-24T11:57:55Z")
Snakespirit, Thanks for such a thorough and clear post. I agree 150%. I believe every single thing you stated, with the minor addition that I allow the use of the term “imperfection” where you use “challenge.” I’m not tied into the idea of perfection on the physical plane, so I’m OK saying we’re imperfect. Yes, I absolutely believe that when seemingly bad things happen to good or “innocent” people, they are growth opportunities given to us by the Divine (or our Higher Selves, but that’s another thread). Yay, I’m glad we have a thread where we were able to discuss out what we thought and believed, and I feel like in the end I came to the realization that we don’t, in fact, disagree. I like it when that happens! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-and-a-perfect-god/265390.md?page=1)