# Circumcision debate - why the obsession? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 28, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619 "2004-06-28T22:45:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/221 "2004-07-02T15:41:01Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Well look at that, I’m automatically insane because I don’t think that freedom of religion is absolute. > > Guess it was just flat out _wrong_ of the government to force the Mormon church to renounce the idea of plural marriages and to prevent Muslims in the US from practicing the same. No, you’re **batshit** insane (don’t forget the modifier) because you claimed over and over, despite evidence to the contrary, that Jews were not under any particular requirement to clip their sons. You didn’t want to acknowledge the judgment you were rendering on a religion, so you kept making up fantasies to support your notion that they didn’t have to do it. Insisting on your own fantasy when confronted with reality is what makes you batshit insane, not limiting the freedom of religion, which as with all freedoms, comes with limitations. Of course, Jews are _required_ to clip their kids. Muslims are _permitted_ though _discouraged_ from marrying more than one woman. (I got no clue about Mormons.) So your limits on freedom of religion would make the practice of Judaism illegal in this country. Banning polygamy doesn’t stand in the way of a Muslim’s practice of Islam in the slightest. Not an apt comparison. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/222 "2004-07-02T15:52:53Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > So, if you don’t hear them, they don’t exist? They are out there. No, if I have never encountered one or seen reliable evidence for one, I conclude that it is likely that they don’t exist. > [@](#): > > It’s still possible to practice your religion without being allowed to alter other people’s unconsenting bodies in order to assert a faith they don’t even know if they will ever have. You know nothing about Judaism. Countless prayers use the phrase ‘Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzhak, Elohei Yacov’ ‘G-d of Abraham, G-d of Isaac, G-d of Jacob’ Abraham- The first Jew. He had himself circumcised at several decades of age. Isaac- G-d commanded Abraham to circumcise him on his 8th day, as sign of the covenant. Jacob- also known as Israel. Every reference to the G-d of Abraham, the shield of Abraham, the strength of Abraham, etc is understood to mean ‘The G-d who made covenant with Abraham and commanded him to circumcise his sons as sign of the covenant.’ ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/223 "2004-07-02T16:14:37Z")
Excalibre, Man, you don’t know who JDT is? JDT is the common abreviation used for a poster named Jack Dean Tyler. Compaired to JDT, all of the people we are talking with in this thread are completely reasonable. His profile shows 269 posts, but I think many have been lost over the years, I remember his final numbers being close to 500 posts. Of these, exactly one(1) was on a subject other than the evils of circumcision. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=47631) is a thread that archives most of his “contibutions” on this subject. If you have a LOT of spare time, I highly recommend reading some, if not all, of the linked threads. The guy started out seeing to have an unhealthy obsession with MC, quickly progressed to batshit insane, blew throiugh that in about 3 posts, leaving lock-up-the-kids lunacy far behind before coming to rest somewhere west of eye-melting, world-ending, lobitomy-embracing, megalomanical insanity. Acording to him, MC is responsible for everything from WWII to sexually unsatisfied females (he stated that uncut men should lie still on top of women and rub against them slowly, and that the foreskin would caress the clit in a manner that took the woman to unparalelled heights of pleasure. Aparently the foreskin is prehensile or something. Penetration? Pfft!) Read the linked threads, it is insanity at it’s most entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/224 "2004-07-02T16:18:00Z")
Start with [This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=46061&pagenumber=1). The poetry in the first 6 posts along is easily woth $14.95/year. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/225 "2004-07-02T16:31:40Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Well look at that, I’m automatically insane because I don’t think that freedom of religion is absolute. Insane, no. Posessed of a large amount the Ignorance the Straight Dope exists to fight? Yes. You said that Judaism can be practiced without circumcision. This is like saying Christianity can be practiced without Jesus. You’ve essentially said ‘You can still practice your faith in the ways you feel G-d commanded, but ignore the central command which is older than all the others and defined you as a people long before you received the Ten Commandments, or the laws requiring you to keep kosher.’ **WeirdDave** and **GingerOfTheNorth** Astound me with their knowledge of Judaism. They have a store of information usually found only in folks with PhDs in Theology and such, or by folks who have spent their lives in a Jewish environment. Discovering this was rather shocking. It’s a wonderful, heartwarming thing and I really respect them for it. **Catsix** Your ignorance of the most central and basic Jewish beliefs and practices is the opposite of that experience. Every Jewish comedian, sooner or later, does a circumcision routine. It’s discussed on how many episodes of Sienfeld? It comes up in how many Mel Brooks films? Do you Circumcision is not some minor tenet. It is central and vital to Judaism in the same way that the Constitution and Bill Of Rights are to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/226 "2004-07-02T16:34:40Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Start with [This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=46061&pagenumber=1). The poetry in the first 6 posts along is easily woth $14.95/year. My god, that was funny! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/227 "2004-07-02T16:43:40Z")
> [@JDT](#): > > You must have been insane > to strap my baby body down > and tear my virgin foreskin > from my glans - > Me screaming bloody murder to the skies! > > . . . > > Rape? RAPE?! > THIS IS NOT RAPE! > There is no word for what you did to me! > And what, pray tell, you think I¹D do, to THEE? > > God damn your putrid madness, you dead man! > God damn your mad vomit straight to hell! > May livedEviliveDevil feast upon it! > May S/He sicken on your putrid evil gore > and die in holy hell forever more! Wow, just wow. Thank you, Weirddave ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/228 "2004-07-02T17:00:04Z")
> [@](#): > > **Excalibre** said: > So your limits on freedom of religion would make the practice of Judaism illegal in this country. No, they’d be able to do everything else in their religion except cut people up in the name of it. > [@](#): > > No, you’re batshit insane (don’t forget the modifier) I hope you don’t expect me to lose any sleep over what you think of my mental state. It means fuck-all. > [@](#): > > **DocCathode** said: > No, if I have never encountered one or seen reliable evidence for one, I conclude that it is likely that they don’t exist. I’m not about to hand out the names and phone numbers of the ones I know, so does that make me a liar? [quoteYou know nothing about Judaism. Countless prayers use the phrase ‘Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzhak, Elohei Yacov’ ‘G-d of Abraham, G-d of Isaac, G-d of Jacob’[/quote] I don’t much _care_ how many prayers there are or how old the book is. Cutting parts off of the unconsenting unless there are extreme medical circumstances is wrong. > [@](#): > > You said that Judaism can be practiced without circumcision. > > This is like saying Christianity can be practiced without Jesus. I wasn’t aware that Jesus caused irreprable physical harm to followers. > [@](#): > > Circumcision is not some minor tenet. It is central and vital to Judaism in the same way that the Constitution and Bill Of Rights are to the United States. You have mistaken my belief that it is wrong with ignorance of the topic. I’m fully aware how important you think it is. I still think the practice is **wrong**. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/229 "2004-07-02T17:06:52Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **WeirdDave** and **GingerOfTheNorth** Astound me with their knowledge of Judaism. They have a store of information usually found only in folks with PhDs in Theology and such, or by folks who have spent their lives in a Jewish environment. Discovering this was rather shocking. It’s a wonderful, heartwarming thing and I really respect them for it. Thanks, Doc. Say, when are you coming over? I figured you could come over some Saturday morning and we’d have bacon cheeseburgers and shrimp salad. You can even help me cook them, it’ll be great!. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/230 "2004-07-02T17:21:00Z")
Nobody wants to talk to me - I think I’ll go somewhere and sulk. ☹ Or could it be that no-one has an answer they are willing to give? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/231 "2004-07-02T17:32:36Z")
UGH!! It seemed like there was a chance for a breakthrough here. But the batshit insanity won out . . . > [@catsix](#): > > No, they’d be able to do everything else in their religion except cut people up in the name of it. Which is, as DocCathode pointed out, and as I pointed out, and as several other people pointed out, central to their faith in the way that Jesus is central to Christianity. You’d be banning the practice of Judaism, or at minimum driving it underground. > [@catsix](#): > > I hope you don’t expect me to lose any sleep over what you think of my mental state. It means fuck-all. No, dear, I had no such ambitions. I don’t have any desire for you to lose sleep; the fact that you’re batshit insane doesn’t mean I want you to come to any harm. > [@catsix](#): > > I’m not about to hand out the names and phone numbers of the ones I know, so does that make me a liar? It doesn’t matter if you do or not. A few isolated anecdotes are not the same as data. Of course, stating that “a few isolated anecdotes are out there, but I’m not telling you where” is even further from actual data. Sorry I won’t take your word on it. > [@catsix](#): > > > [@DocCathode](#): > > > > You know nothing about Judaism. Countless prayers use the phrase ‘Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzhak, Elohei Yacov’ ‘G-d of Abraham, G-d of Isaac, G-d of Jacob’ > > I don’t much _care_ how many prayers there are or how old the book is. Cutting parts off of the unconsenting unless there are extreme medical circumstances is wrong. This just in: catsix, the well-known pseudonym of a batshit insane anti-circumcision crusader, has condemned the central practices of the Jewish faith! > [@catsix](#): > > I wasn’t aware that Jesus caused irreprable physical harm to followers. We weren’t talking about that, were we? He was making a point about just how central circumcision is to Judaism, but you continue to pretend that it’s not. You (and your associates) have asked those on the other side to accept arguments comparing female genital mutilation to circumcision, ignoring the fact that one is **much** more harmful than the other; I should hope you’d have the courtesy to actually listen to what DocCathode is saying rather than freely condemning an entire religion. > [@catsix](#): > > You have mistaken my belief that it is wrong with ignorance of the topic. I’m fully aware how important you think it is. I still think the practice is **wrong**. No, catsix, statements like yours above, kindly offering to let Jews practice their religion except for that nasty circumcision bit indicate clearly that you don’t understand the importance of this ritual to Jewish people. You, in fact, have demonstrated time after time that you don’t consider circumcision an important element of Judaism, which indicates that you have virtually no understanding of it. > [@DocCathode](#): > > WeirdDave and GingerOfTheNorth Astound me with their knowledge of Judaism. Hey, hey, hey, I was one of the first, if not the first people in the thread to point out just how important circumcision is. And I came up with the quote from the Torah. I mean, I’m not exactly claiming to be a theologian, but a little credit, maybe? Anyway, catsix, you can repeat over and over that Jews can be Jews without practicing circumcision. If that were the case, it would make your point stronger, but the fact is that it’s not. Judaism considers the “old book” you dismiss so freely to be the word of G-d, and the first command of G-d, the one that established the Jews as the Chosen People, the command that _began Judaism_ was the command to Abram (was he Abraham yet?) to clip himself and his kid. You don’t have to think this is right. But this kind of thing is what I’ve been getting at when I defend “tradition” and “cultural values”. When you start throwing things out willy-nilly, it has unintended consequences. catsix would like to see Judaism banned in this country, though she would deny it. Throwing out the practices that make up a culture, ethnic group, or religion is taking that group apart, like removing support beams from a building. Some of 'em are minor, and some are important. With Judaism and circumcision, it’s like pulling the foundation out. I view each culture, religion, and ethnicity as an inherently good, worthwhile thing. I don’t think they should be tossed aside lightly. I don’t believe that anything is justified in the name of religion - I’m fine banning human sacrifice, and if that means some religions are banned, so be it. But there has to be real, significant, major harm caused by a practice to justify this drastic step. Human sacrifice causes that major harm. So does female genital mutilation. No one yet has made a case that circumcision does - catsix has her general philosophical objections to taking away parts of babies, which make perfect sense to me (unlike the rest of what she says.) And I agree, in principle. Chotii talks about the results of circumcision in some adult men, and I think those are both sad and frightening. But if circumcision were to be banned, the ban would itself have major and destructive effects. And so circumcision would have to be very, very harmful to justify it. And if the number of guys who are truly upset about it, and the number of guys who are permanently sexually dysfunctional because of it, are small, as no one has even tried to dispute, then it’s not enough. A case could be made for banning it, with religious exemptions, but to me that would imply that it’s a terrible practice and yet we’re allowing the Jews and Muslims to continue their barbarity - it would potentially create animosity, and it would also imply that the beliefs of Jews and Muslims are somehow more valid than the beliefs of any other parent who simply thought their kid should get cut, for whatever reason. Circumcision in modern America is not a foundation. It’s more of a very minor structural beam. No doubt our society would get along without it, but there’s a dangerous precedent set in banning a common practice, a societal tradition, if the ban can’t be justified by demonstrating the tradition to be harmful. Circumcision is harmful, but the harm seems to be small enough that it doesn’t justify a ban. I couldn’t agree with a ban on it until it was shown that it’s far more dangerous than any of the other things we let parents do to their kids. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/232 "2004-07-02T17:35:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Nobody wants to talk to me - I think I’ll go somewhere and sulk. ☹ > > Or could it be that no-one has an answer they are willing to give? 😕 No, don’t sulk! I laughed out loud, disturbing my office-mate. And I think they make a pretty interesting argument. Hopefully Mangetout or Chotii will give 'em the once-over; I of course wouldn’t argue with what you said, and the argument is so busy that I didn’t take the time to compliment you. You deserve compliments, however. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/233 "2004-07-02T17:35:41Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > No, they’d be able to do everything else in their religion except cut people up in the name of it. Except that circumcision is ,again, _CENTRAL AND VITAL_ to Judaism. You’ve essentially just said ‘You can do everything else with your car, except use it to transport people or objects’ ‘You can do whatever you want with your Sony PLaystation as long as you don’t put games in it’ You don’t seem to grasp that you **cannot** practice Judaism without circumcision. Without that ancient sign of the covenant it isn’t Judaism anymore. You can have tuna salad without celery. You cannot have tuna salad without tuna. > [@](#): > > I don’t much _care_ how many prayers there are or how old the book is. You also know nothing about them. **Gobear** is an atheist. He has studied scripture and can cite and discuss it very well. You, on the other hand, are objecting to a practice whose significance you’ve never bothered to learn, and claiming that a defining and basic tenet of a religious faith can simply be discarded without impacting the religion. > [@](#): > > You have mistaken my belief that it is wrong with ignorance of the topic. You _are_ ignorant of circumcision in Judaism. Saying ‘They can still practice Judaism, just no circumcisions’ is proof of that. > [@](#): > > I’m fully aware how important you think it is. No, you’re not. To truly understand how important I think it is, you’d have to have at least a basic knowledge of Judaism. You’ve demonstrated that you lack that. I will have my sons circumcised not simply ‘So they look like daddy’ or because ‘well, my folks did it to me’. They will be circumcised as a sign of the eternal covenant between G-d and the children of Abraham. They will be circumcised as a sign or our love of G-d and our faithfullnes. They will be circumcised as a sign that they are children of the people Israel, and that despite Nebbuchadnezzars, pharohs, Torquemadas, and Hitlers we have endured. You claim to understand what I am saying, and to know the role of circumcision in my faith. But, when you say that I can simply practice Judaism without circumcising my sons, you prove you understand nothing and know nothing. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/234 "2004-07-02T17:51:03Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > No, they’d be able to do everything else in their religion except cut people up in the name of it. How kind of you to tell us which of our commandments we can keep and which we can’t. While you’re at it, why don’t tell us that we can’t have our kids eat out in a _sukkah_ because it might be too cold for the non-consenting, or that we can’t deprive them of pretzels on Passover because they didn’t consent, or that I can’t send my child to a _yeshiva_ because he might not consent… “Cut people up” :rolleyes: You make it sound like we go out there with an axe, chop the kid into 90 pieces and distribute the parts. :rolleyes: We’re removing a foreskin. It’s a non-essential organ. Millions upon millions of people have them all the time and live perfectly normal lives. > [@](#): > > You have mistaken my belief that it is wrong with ignorance of the topic. I’m fully aware how important you think it is. I still think the practice is **wrong**. Apparently you _don’t_ realize how important it is. Throughout history, Jews have undertaken great hardships to be able to circumcize their sons. You know that holiday that we have in late November or early December? Channukah? Do you know why it exists? Yes, it involves the _menorah_ in the Temple. But the real reason is because we were once again allowed to practice our religion openly after a period of it being outlawed. One of the commandments that the Syrian-Greeks specifically targeted was the commandment of circumcision. It was our victory over the Syrian-Greeks that allowed us to be able to openly observe the commandment again. But even so, people _still_ continued to perform the _mitzvah_ of _bris milah_. In many other locations in many other times, Jews have been prohibited from performing this _mitzvah_. And nonetheless, despite whatever dangers may have been involved, Jews still continued to circumcize their children. There are very few commandments that are near-universal in their adherence by Jews. _Bris Milah_ is one of those commandments (As an aside, I find it interesting that a justification to allow abortion [and I don’t want to turn this into an abortion debate] is that otherwise women will just go and have “back-alley abortions” [i.e. they will continue to have them anyway]. Well, if you outlaw circumcisions, Jews will continue to have them too. It will simply be a case of “back-alley brissim” being performed). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/235 "2004-07-02T17:55:14Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > They will be circumcised as a sign that they are children of the people Israel, and that despite Nebbuchadnezzars, pharohs, Torquemadas, and Hitlers we have endured. Somehow, the thought of adding “penis-obsessed tinfoil-hat-wearing ‘Tug-ahoy™’ nutjobs I argue with over the Internet” to the grand historical array of “Nebbuchadnezzars, pharohs, Torquemadas, and Hitlers” gave me a chuckle. 😉 ;j ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/236 "2004-07-02T17:56:40Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > No, don’t sulk! I laughed out loud, disturbing my office-mate. And I think they make a pretty interesting argument. Hopefully Mangetout or Chotii will give 'em the once-over; I of course wouldn’t argue with what you said, and the argument is so busy that I didn’t take the time to compliment you. You deserve compliments, however. 🙂 Don’t worry, I was just being tounge-in-cheek over the failure of the “anti” crowd to answer the argument. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/237 "2004-07-02T18:24:55Z")
**Excalibre** I didn’t mean to offend you. It’s just that when I first met **WeirdDave** and **Ginger** they pretty much fit the picture I had of them (it wasn’t a negative image, it just didn’t include a store of Judaica). At the Central PA Fest, **Ginger** made this marvellous Jewish applecake and reveald that she was very familiar with the laws of kashrut. For some reason, this is not something I expected in a Gentile from Canada. Then I joined live journal, and her LJ used the word frum. I figured that maybe there was a secret Jewish stronghold near Quebec or something. Then, **WeirdDave** pops up and puts an end to that theory. ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/238 "2004-07-02T20:06:21Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **Excalibre** > > I didn’t mean to offend you. It’s just that when I first met **WeirdDave** and **Ginger** they pretty much fit the picture I had of them (it wasn’t a negative image, it just didn’t include a store of Judaica). At the Central PA Fest, **Ginger** made this marvellous Jewish applecake and reveald that she was very familiar with the laws of kashrut. For some reason, this is not something I expected in a Gentile from Canada. Then I joined live journal, and her LJ used the word frum. > > I figured that maybe there was a secret Jewish stronghold near Quebec or something. > > Then, **WeirdDave** pops up and puts an end to that theory. Nah, it’s not _near_ Quebec. It’s _in_ Quebec. Doc, I knowingly never met a Jew until I was an adult. Judaica just fascinates me, so it’s something I’ve learned about. Thank you for your kind words. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/239 "2004-07-02T20:49:53Z")
> [@](#): > > **Excalibre** said: > I don’t have any desire for you to lose sleep; the fact that you’re batshit insane doesn’t mean I want you to come to any harm. Well you’re certainly entitled to think the wrong thing about me. > [@](#): > > Sorry I won’t take your word on it. So you figure I’m a liar too? > [@](#): > > I should hope you’d have the courtesy to actually listen to what DocCathode is saying rather than freely condemning an entire religion. I condemn one act. If someone cannot separate themselves from such a driving psychological need to chop parts off of penises, it’s not me who has a problem. > [@](#): > > Judaism considers the “old book” you dismiss so freely to be the word of G-d, and the first command of G-d, the one that established the Jews as the Chosen People, the command that began Judaism was the command to Abram (was he Abraham yet?) to clip himself and his kid. If by ‘clip the kid’ you mean **kill** the kid, I suppose. The fact is that it’s an old book not demonstrably provable to be the word of anyone but the human beings who wrote it. I do not accept that as a reason to make causing physical harm to the unconsenting remain a legal practice in present day America. > [@](#): > > **Zev Steinhardt** said: > Throughout history, Jews have undertaken great hardships to be able to circumcize their sons. Pardon me but I will never, ever understand how this is a good thing. Jews undertook great hardships so that they could cause immense pain to newborn babies and permanently alter their sexual organs by removing a very sensitive piece of skin. You obviously see this as a good thing. I do not. As for all those who argue about the importance of the practice because it’s in the Torah, well, I’ve seen many, many times on this site people telling Christians that just because their book is really old, that doesn’t make it always _right_. Why doesn’t the same apply here? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/240 "2004-07-02T21:53:59Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] I condemn one act. [QUOTE] An act at the heart of Judaism. > [@](#): > > If someone cannot separate themselves from such a driving psychological need to chop parts off of penises,- You said several times that Judaism could be practiced without circumcision. You were wrong. Now, you’ve shifted you’re attack from Judaism, to the minds of Jews. You have just made an ad hominem attack on all Jews. Including my mother, father, my sister, me, **Zev** , **CmKeller** , > [@](#): > > -it’s not me who has a problem. Yes, it is. The problem is called ignorance. ‘Circumcision is wrong, and should be banned’ is an opinion. ‘Judaism can be practiced without circumcision’ is a statement. It is demonstrably wrong. It demonstrates that you know nothing about Judaism. > [@](#): > > If by ‘clip the kid’ you mean **kill** the kid, I suppose. Gee, ya mean the passage in which G-d tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, then stops him at the last possible instant, and announces that unlike other people (the worshippers of Moloch for example) the Jews are **never** to offer a human sacrifice to their deity? In short, ya mean the passage in which G-d forbids human sacrifice? > [@](#): > > The fact is that it’s an old book not demonstrably provable to be the word of anyone but the human beings who wrote it. No it doesn’t prove who wrote it. Reading it does prove that circumcision is a vital part of Judaism and we cannot, as you suggested, just forget about it and practice the other parts. And any study of Jewish history will reveal that millions upon millions of Jews have been circumcised over the centuries. This doesn’t automatically make it right. But, it does show millions upon millions of succesful, complication free circumcisions. You say it’s dangerous. We have a very high success rate. You say it destroys the capacity for sexual pleasure- Dr Ruth would disagree with you. You want us to stop? Why? > [@](#): > > I do not accept that as a reason to make causing physical harm to the unconsenting remain a legal practice in present day America. Again parents have the right to make many decisions for their children without the child’s consent- **Malthus** ’ cosmetic orthodonture comes to mind. Why is circumcision different? > [@](#): > > Pardon me but I will never, ever understand- On this, I’m beginning to agree with you. > [@](#): > > -how this is a good thing. Jews undertook great hardships so that they could cause immense pain to newborn babies and permanently alter their sexual organs- Because circumcision is essential to Judaism. By outlawing it, Antiochus and the rest were trying to destroy the Jews as a people. Jews undertook great hardships so that they could perform an act central to their faith.You still don’t seem to grasp just how important circumcion is in Judaism. > [@](#): > > -by removing a very sensitive piece of skin. Cite? For, lo Cecil spaketh saying > [@](#): > > Cecil replies: > > We do have a diversity of opinions here, don’t we? To address the points raised in these and similar letters: > > - The foreskin is not ordinary skin, but rather is “replete with nerve endings of sexual pleasure.” > > The chief evidence for this seems to be research by John Taylor. Dr. Taylor opposes circumcision, has not formally published his research, and is not a specialist in neurology. His remarks on the structure and purpose of the foreskin are highly conjectural and include such statements as, “We haven’t done a strict quantitative study [but] to my mind [certain nerve endings] are rather more commonly found here in the prepuce than they are in the glans of the penis.” It would be foolish on the basis of such work to make any definite statements about the foreskin’s contribution to sexual sensitivity or anything else. From [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a940128.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a940128.html) > [@](#): > > You obviously see this as a good thing. I do not. Bubbelleh, at this point, it’s obvious to anybody reading the thread that you don’t see. > [@](#): > > As for all those who argue about the importance of the practice because it’s in the Torah, well, I’ve seen many, many times on this site people telling Christians that just because their book is really old, that doesn’t make it always _right_. Why doesn’t the same apply here? If you want to make the argument ‘Just because it’s old doesn’t mean it’s right’ then make it. Why drag in other, unnamed posters or Christianity? I’ve already said that if you don’t believe that the Torah (or the Q’uran) has special significance, don’t circumcise. I’ve already said that being ‘really old’ doesn’t make a practice right. But, it does give us literally millions of cases in which there were no complications. Whether there is a G-d, and whether the Torah is his word are other debates. If there is and it is, we are commanded to circumcise our sons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619.md?page=13)