# Circumcision debate - why the obsession? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 28, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619 "2004-06-28T22:45:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/541 "2004-07-08T14:46:09Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > ? You have a habit of implying that everyone in the US is an ignorant, obsessive, war-mongering lunatic and, frankly, I’m tired of it. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/542 "2004-07-08T15:12:19Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > \*\* > > f the _mitzvos_. The mitzvos bieng? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/543 "2004-07-08T15:13:37Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > You have a habit of implying that everyone in the US is an ignorant, obsessive, war-mongering lunatic and, frankly, I’m tired of it. Really? I have 4 questions for you: 1. If you get “tired” from reading my posts, then why do you read them? 2. If you read them, why don’t you read what is written instead of taking for real what a strange functioning of your brain makes appear to be there while in reality it is not there? 3. Do you always attack people with no reason in the middle of a thread? 4. Don’t you know that this very BBQ-thing is made for giving a playground to those who like attacking people, yet that this ought to be done in a specific thread dedicated to the subject of obsession? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/544 "2004-07-08T15:16:53Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > In my opinion this US habit is a left-over of interpretation of the Biblical commands, wether those who circumcize their children even kow that, or not. Actually, it has been said that circumcizion was originally introduced at the end of the XIX° century because it supposedly would prevent boys from masturbating, and not only in the US, but also in some european countries, where it would have been abandonned long ago. But I wouldn’t know if it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/545 "2004-07-08T15:22:23Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > The mitzvos bieng? Sorry about that. _Mitzvah_ means “commandment.” _Mitzvos_ is plural (“commandments”). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/546 "2004-07-08T15:45:11Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > As the mother of a fatherless uncirced boy I would have to say HUH!? Wonder not. Destined to bring balance to the Force, he is. **Catsix** 14? Did you read my earlier post about Bar Mitzvahs? The important ceremony which takes place when a boy is 13? Postponing circumcision until 14 means we have to push back the Bar Mitzvah as well. **Sevastapol** Find a post in this thread where I claim a medical benefit for circumcision. My first post advises _against_ medical circumcision. Re **Clairobscur** As has been pointed out, English is not her first language. She may have accidentally dropped the a. Or, she may be unaware of how to correctly use the noun and adjective forms of Jew in English **Clairobscur** If your friend claimed to be a Jew when it was to her advantage, then I’d consider it a sin not to follow those practices which may be inconvenient. In the age of the internet, there are plenty of places to learn more about Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/547 "2004-07-08T15:48:03Z")
I’ve got a couple quick questions here that I’m curious about but don’t wanna get stuck in this mire either (so be kind :)) 1)Did Canada join in with the circumcisions as well or is this more exclusive to the U.S.? 2)This is an “IMHO” question for our Jewish Dopers here, do you think you or yours would have psychological problems (for lack of a better term, please don’t take offense) were you to have grown up uncircumsized? FWIW, I’m a 70s baby in the US. My parents had me circumsized and I really couldn’t care less (or is it care more?). Well, it’s just no skin off my …erm… ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/548 "2004-07-08T16:15:51Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Re **Clairobscur** > > As has been pointed out, English is not her first language. She may have accidentally dropped the a. Or, she may be unaware of how to correctly use the noun and adjective forms of Jew in English Correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember that **clairobscur** claimed to possess a penis. So unless that penis is in a jar of formaldehyde, he is a guy. Can we please straighten out the pronouns here? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/549 "2004-07-08T16:20:04Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > 1. If you get “tired” from reading my posts, then why do you read them? I didn’t say I was tired of reading your posts, just the bits of Amerophobia. > [@](#): > > \*2. If you read them, why don’t you read what is written instead of taking for real what a strange functioning of your brain makes appear to be there while in reality it is not there? \* Did you or did you not say we’re obsessed with circumcising newborns? > [@](#): > > \*3. Do you always attack people with no reason in the middle of a thread? \* Anyone who makes a backhanded slam against an entire population (i.e.: paints with a wide brush) should expect to be called on it. > [@](#): > > _4. Don’t you know that this very BBQ-thing is made for giving a playground to those who like attacking people, yet that this ought to be done in a specific thread dedicated to the subject of obsession?_ The subject of the obsession is not the _act_ of circumcision but the _debate_ surrounding the act. You know, those who are in favor of circumcision and those who vehemently denounce it. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/550 "2004-07-08T16:23:42Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > 2)This is an “IMHO” question for our Jewish Dopers here, do you think you or yours would have psychological problems (for lack of a better term, please don’t take offense) were you to have grown up uncircumsized? I don’t think so. I can’t say for certain because I’ve known no other way, but I don’t think it would have caused me much harm (psychologically) other than in the knowledge that I would have to have one as an adult. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/551 "2004-07-08T16:39:02Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > 1. Don’t you know that this very BBQ-thing is made for giving a playground to those who like attacking people, yet that this ought to be done in a specific thread dedicated to the subject of obsession? On second thought, maybe “obsession” in this case refers to you and not this thread. Nah, nobody can be that arrogant. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/552 "2004-07-08T17:44:34Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > Speaking as a Jew (albeit a rather agnostic one), I say that since the quoted poster is not a native English speaker, we should cut him some slack. And personally, I pay more attention to the manner in which the word is used, rather than whether it is preceded by the definite article – and the manner has been pretty darn respectful so far IMO. Ahh. That explains it. I did not realize that he was a non-native English speaker. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/553 "2004-07-08T18:48:46Z")
**Eva Luna** Other than the testes, nothing is actually discarded in male to female sexual reassignment surgery. The most common procedure is penile inversion. As the name implies, the penis is basically(for more information, many GD threads have covered the subject) pulled into the body to create a neovagina. **StPauler** I would have found it extremely confusing. Why would I be uncircumcised? If it was due to any kind of law banning or delaying it (which I assume is what you meant then)- ‘Mom, you’re a Jew, right?’ ‘Yes, honey’ ‘And Dad is a Jew?’ ‘Yes, sweety.’ ‘And I’m a Jew?’ ‘Yes, boychik.’ ‘So why am I not circumcised? In Hebrew school today, Mrs Glassman told us all about how G-d commanded Abraham to circumcise Isaac and how important circumcision was.’ I would’ve repeated this conversation every few weeks with a different Jewish adult. Having known myself all my life, I think I would have eventually come to one of three conclusions: #1- My parents and the rest of the Jewish adults have let fear of secular authorities prevent them from obeying G-d #2- The US government has failed to obey the Bill Of Rights, and the vision of the founding fathers. While better than the Ukraine my greatgrandfather fled, the government is unjust and will not let us freely practice our faith #3 Both of 1 and 2. Re Smegma Being AntiBacterial (I can’t remember who said it) Could I get a cite for that? I know that urine actually kills most germs. But, as I understood it, smegma was a mixture of dead skin and oils. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/554 "2004-07-08T19:22:58Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **Eva Luna** > Other than the testes, nothing is actually discarded in male to female sexual reassignment surgery. The most common procedure is penile inversion. As the name implies, the penis is basically(for more information, many GD threads have covered the subject) pulled into the body to create a neovagina. Huh? Nobody was talking about sexual reassignment surgery in this thread, as far as I know. Look at post #289, in which **clairobscur** mentions that he is circumcised in the following manner: > [@](#): > > Howewer, for the record, I do have a penis, and actually a circumcized one. (Of course, I suppose he could actually mean that he has a circumcised penis floating in a jar of formaldehyde somewhere, but if that’s the case, I’d honestly rather not know about it.) **clairobscur,** as a linguist by education, I’d like to straighten this out. You are a man, right? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/555 "2004-07-08T20:49:21Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > As has been pointed out, English is not her first language. She may have accidentally dropped the a. Or, she may be unaware of how to correctly use the noun and adjective forms of Jew in English Indeed. The equivalent sentences would have been correct in French. But now I’m wondering : is it a general rule I totally missed until now? I mean should I say “my father was an american” rather than “my father was american” or is it only uncorrect with words like “Jew”? What about “my father was black, amerindian, etc…?” I know…My questions are more and more off-topic… **Clairobscur** If your friend claimed to be a Jew when it was to her advantage, then I’d consider it a sin not to follow those practices which may be inconvenient. In the age of the internet, there are plenty of places to learn more about Judaism. [/QUOTE] That’s why I mentionned the part about the job in my question, since she had in this way aknowledged she was A Jew, hence I assumed it could change the answer. Anyway, apart from my theorical question, from a practical point of view, she didn’t have any interest in Judaism, having rather inherited a vague mysticism from her mother. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/556 "2004-07-08T20:57:27Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember that **clairobscur** claimed to possess a penis. So unless that penis is in a jar of formaldehyde, he is a guy. Can we please straighten out the pronouns here? Hey! Surgeons messed with it, as I mentionned, but not to the point it would end up in a jar, fortunately. I’m definitely male, “clairobscur” has nothing to do with the surname “claire” but means “twilight” in french. And it’s a masculine noun in this language. But I’m accustomed to erroneous assumptions about my gender. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/557 "2004-07-08T23:24:38Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Indeed. The equivalent sentences would have been correct in French. But now I’m wondering : is it a general rule I totally missed until now? I mean should I say “my father was an american” rather than “my father was american” or is it only uncorrect with words like “Jew”? What about “my father was black, amerindian, etc…?” Black, Indian, and American are all the same in their adjective and noun forms. Jew is not. “Jew” is a noun, so it requires an article in that context: “He is _a_ Jew.” The corresponding adjective is “Jewish” - “He is Jewish.” Just like “He is a man” vs. “He is male.” ---
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/558 "2004-07-08T23:45:07Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > I suppose he could actually mean that he has a circumcised penis floating in a jar of formaldehyde somewhere You mean, like [this one](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/040612/photos_od_afp/040612223046_6vsf86zu_photo0&e=2)? ---
**Author:** ![Chotii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Chotii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chotii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/559 "2004-07-09T01:03:57Z")
> [@bughunter](#): > > You mean, like [this one](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/040612/photos_od_afp/040612223046_6vsf86zu_photo0&e=2)? Except that…that one wasn’t circumcised (or done very loosely). Look how much skin covers the edge of the corona? Alternatively, and I suppose this could happen as I have seen photographs of exactly this, he _was_ cut, but loosely as I said, and the remaining skin rolled up over the damaged/abraded head, and adhered/grew to it all around so that no coronal edge was ever visible. It would count as a botched circ, but given that the pictures I saw came from a ‘bad boy’ post-your-own-cock website for admirers, I’m quite sure the owners had no idea that they’d been ‘done’ wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Chotii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Chotii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chotii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/560 "2004-07-09T02:05:18Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Re Smegma Being AntiBacterial (I can’t remember who said it) > > Could I get a cite for that? I know that urine actually kills most germs. But, as I understood it, smegma was a mixture of dead skin and oils. Well, it _is_ a mixture of dead skin and oils…and lysozyme. Though I don’t see why the oils should be a problem - certainly the glans, like all skin and especially as erogenous tissue, must benefit from being naturally moisturised. [Here is the best I could find for a cite for you](http://www.elvovemd.com/files/The_Foreskin_is_Necessary.pdf): I am quite aware that because the author is Dr. Paul Fleiss, anything I quote from here on out is likely to be tossed out as utter trash no matter how many peer-reviewed journal articles I provide for reference, but that’s not my problem. So far, all the “pro” side has offered in rebuttal is “We have thousands of years on our side, we don’t need no steekin peer-reviewed journal cites for evidence!” But here you go. "The glans itself contains no sebaceous glands (glands that produce the sebum, or oil, that moisturizes our skin (11). The foreskin produces the sebum that maintains proper health of the surface of the glans. The mucous membranes that line all body orifices are the body’s first line of immunological defense. Glands in the foreskin produce antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as lysozyme (12). Lysozyme is also found in tears and mother’s milk (it destroys bacterial cell walls). Specialized epithelial Langerhans cells, an immune system component, abound in the foreskin’s outer surface (13). Plasma cells in the foreskin’s mucosal lining secrete immunoglobulins, antibodies that defend against infection (14) 1. A.B. Hyman and M.H. Brown, “Tyson’s ‘Glands’: Ectopic Sebaceous Glands and Papillomatosis Penis,” Archives of Dermatology 99 (1969): 31-37. 2. A. Ahmed and A.W. Jones “Apocrine Cystdenoma: A Report of Two Cases Occurring on the Prepuce,” British Journal of Dermatology 81 (1969): 899-901 3. G.N. Weiss et al., “The Distribution and Density of Langerhans Cells in the Human Prepuce: Site of a Diminished Immune Response?” Israel Journal of Medical Sciences 29 (1993): 42-43 4. P.J. Flower et al., “An Immunolpathologic Study of the Bovine Prepuce,” Veterinary Pathology 20 (1983): 189-202." [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619.md?page=29)