# Circumcision debate - why the obsession? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 28, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619 "2004-06-28T22:45:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Asteroide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@Asteroide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asteroide)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/101 "2004-06-30T20:16:28Z")
Following on from **Princhester** here - where do you draw the line ? Is it OK to tattoo the word “sin” on your newborn’s dick ? Is it OK to perform a circumcision on a 10 year old boy ? How about other ritual genital mutilations (insertion of shells beneath the skin etc.) ? Ritual facial scarifications ? ---
**Author:** ![Chotii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Chotii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chotii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/102 "2004-06-30T20:32:45Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > You’ve got it backwards, Sparky, and it wouldn’t even be hard to do. Contact men who converted as an adult to a religion requiring circumcision and had the procedure done and ask them about sex before and after. They could prolly be pretty objective about the experience. You’re still talking apples and oranges. A body-part altered in infancy is going to be different from a body part altered in adulthood, if for no other reason than that the infant brain is constantly making nerve connections and will react differently to a bodily injury than the adult mind would. Absolutely, I think the study you suggest is a good one, since the men in those cases would be accepting circumcision as a part of their religion, as a duty, rather than for medical reasons, or for aesthetic or even fetishist reasons. However, it still cannot tell us anything about the experience of someone who has gone from cut to restored. And you’d have to follow up for many, many years, as keritinization of the glans penis appears to be a cumulative process. > [@](#): > > The trouble with your suggestion is that you’d be starting out with a population of men who think there is something wrong with them, that they’ve been mutilated, harmed or whatever other reason they have for resenting being circumcised (after all, who else is going to waste months and years on a damnfool stunt like trying to “regrow” the foreskin). Don’t you think that might tend to skew the results just an itty bitty teensy weinsey bit? Well, didn’t I say exactly this? I did. This is the same reason you can’t ask men who sought circumcision because they were unhappy having a foreskin, and ask them about their sexual satisfaction afterward, and apply it across the population. _Their_ motivations also skew their perceptions and the results. I guess I see things this way: It’s a relatively quick healing process for an adult to recover from circumcision. Absolutely it’s painful, but it’s reasonably quick. He will not be at the healing process for _years_. Whereas if a man wishes to restore, he’s facing _years_ of effort, and yes, discomfort, inconvenience, etc. How do you weigh the short-termed pain of the few against the long-termed inconvenience of the other few? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/103 "2004-06-30T20:42:18Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > I have never seen, smelled nor tasted anything odd or offputting on a circumcised penis that’s been 'worn" all day long. An uncircumcised one may have been well washed that morning, but come afternoon? Ugh, no more clean than sweated upon armpits or boobage overhang. In the place where I live, washing facilities are available at any hour of the day. End of problem. In point of fact, I find the idea of jumping into bed with a partner who hasn’t bothered to wash slightly icky, regardless of the number of skin folds they possess, or their location. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/104 "2004-06-30T20:46:23Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > And I notice that the anti circ-crowd _still_ hasen’t posted anything aproaching proof or a scientific basis for their claims, continuing to rely on anecdotes from whiney little fucks. > > Typical. The pro side should be providing a scientific basis for the perpetuation of an institution of unnecessary harm; that’s the way it would work in any other case. ---
**Author:** ![stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stately_plump_buck_mulligan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/105 "2004-06-30T21:01:37Z")
Thanks, **Mangetout** , you said what I said in a sentence rather than a paragraph. And yeah, I’d offer that most body parts don’t taste very nice come afternoon if you just showered in the morning. Boobs, arms, legs, faces, necks, weiners, whatever, they all accumulate tang and saltiness after a few hours. I don’t see how the foreskin contributes to a “weird” flavour by the afternoon? It’s not like uncut penises taste like outhouses and cut penises taste like strawberries and cream a few hours after washing. They both taste like DICK. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/106 "2004-06-30T21:02:45Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The pro side should be providing a scientific basis for the perpetuation of an institution of unnecessary harm; that’s the way it would work in any other case. No, actually, it doesn’t, because nobody has proved harm in the first place! Jesus, I get that you people are obsessed with yours and other people’s dicks, but that’s no excuse for assuming that your side is right without evidence. Circumcision is something commonly practiced without any ill effects at all. Before you have the right to tell people that a harmless practice should be outlawed, you have to prove that it is harmful. I don’t have to prove a damn thing, I have thousands of years of history on my side. ---
**Author:** ![earthmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c37758/32.png) [@earthmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/earthmother)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/107 "2004-06-30T21:14:06Z")
First, let me state that I’m a home birth midwife, and refused to circumcise my sons. I dont’ believe in routine circumcision based on cosmetic reasons (so he’ll look like dad) because there is no good medical reason to do so and the procedure done in hospital is risky. I am very anti-circ on that basis. > [@catsix](#): > > Why should a parent be making the decision that their kid have a permanent physical reminder of a covenant that at the time the kid is completely unaware of and may never believe in? Because God commanded that it be so. If you don’t believe in God, you’ll never understand this argument. I fully support the right of parents to parent their children as they see fit. I personally happen to believe that vaccinating your children is far more harmful to them than circumcising your boy. But I’d never deny someone their right to vaccinate, just as I shouldn’t be denied my right not to. > [@](#): > > A very good real life friend of mine is angry to this day that his parents decided to choose his religion and then permanently scar him to identify it. He hates them to this day because of what they forced upon him for no reason beyond _their_ beliefs without regard to what beliefs or choices he’d make later in life. I can’t believe that he hates them only for this reason. It might be what he’s focusing on, but that’s not the basis for his hate. My mother didn’t breastfeed me, my mom vaccinated me, worse, she smoked with me while pregnant and I’ve had a lifetime of respiratory ailments. But I’m not holding those things against her. I’m also very short, should I blame her for stunting my growth by drinking coffee? His parents did what they thought best with the knowledge they had at the time. That’s all ANY parent can do. I too have gotten very angry in the past at parents that vaccinate, circumcise, formula feed, diaper with disposables, feed their kids sugar and preservaties etc. Those things are all very harmful. But that doesn’t mean they should be held to my standards just because I think they should. Humans should have a lot more compassion for each other. Everyone is at a different point on their paths, and not every has come to the same realizations of what’s harmful and what’s not. While I wish no child should ever have to be circumcised outside of religious rites, it’s not my right to force them into leaving their boys intact, just as it’s not their right to force me to circumcise my boys. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/108 "2004-06-30T21:26:18Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > You’re not familiar with the [3-5, 3-5 joke](http://www.funny-jokes-n-pictures.com/jokes-little-johnny-2.html)? Geez, well, even at my age I am someimes uninformed on many things sexual. When I was a young married lass, my then husband about killed himself laughing, before explaining the facts of life to me, when I asked about how gay men had sex. I couldn’t for the life of me imagine anything other than a sort of sword fight with their swords, and couldn’t imagine how THAT could be fun. ---
**Author:** ![stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stately_plump_buck_mulligan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/109 "2004-06-30T21:26:35Z")
**Weirddave** , I do see where you’re coming from. I don’t believe circumcision causes explicit harm, nor do I believe that circumcising your son is condemning him to a life of unsatisfactory sex and a dry, sad glans. All I’m saying is that the procedure is, to me, an antiquated and totally unnecessary remnant of older times. It became popular due to religion, and I don’t see many justifications other than “religious reasons” for just deciding a kid should be without a part of his genitalia. This is, I think, one of those “can never be won” arguments, simply because most every guy has a very special relationship with his cock. He cherishes it, respects it. Most guys are going to automatically “side” with whatever the status of their own penis is: if it’s uncut, then uncut penises are great; if it’s cut, then cut penises are superior. It’s not something that you’re going to change many male minds about. The only people who can really be influenced to change their minds or be neutral about the subject is women. Like me, for example. I’ll admit that I used to be staunchly anti-foreskin; I thought they were icky and should generally be abolished. This was until I realised that I was simply conditioned to think the cut penis was the _only_ way a weiner should be. Now, and especially after interacting with a pretty goddamn awesome uncirced penis, I’m fairly pro-foreskin, though I don’t think there’s anything at all wrong with circed penises. Mostly I try to convince other girls that foreskins aren’t as gross as they think. I think of it as my public service to all the foreskin-having guys out there. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/110 "2004-06-30T21:30:12Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > The inflammatory language is a straw man for at least the more sensible participants in the debate, but in cold sober terms explain to me objectively why you weren’t basically mutilated or abused? How exactly do you not fit within those definitions? The only answer I can think of is that you consider that a given practice cannot be abuse or mutilation if it is considered commonplace in a given society. > > I mean sure, circumcision is so common that it’s pretty hard to think of it as mutilation and abuse, but exactly where do you draw the line in objective terms? I’m cutting off (ha!) the rest of your questions, because they don’t need to be answered individually. I would consider “mutilation” to be something that either impairs ability or alters appearance until it is unattractive by societal norms. Circumcision does neither. Therefore, I have no problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/111 "2004-06-30T21:32:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Because God commanded that it be so. If you don’t believe in God, you’ll never understand this argument. I could buy that people have a right to use ‘god’ as a justification to cut off a part of _their own_ bodies, but where this argument loses with me is where it extends to the body of someone else. Hypothetical: Family adopts a 12 year old boy. Family’s religion dictates that boys are circumcised. Adopted boy is not already circumcised. Would you see it as their right to circumcise him, being the legal parents and doing so as a matter of choosing their kid’s religion? ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/112 "2004-06-30T21:43:37Z")
> [@stately plump buck mulligan](#): > > My boyfriend is uncut. His penis is always clean, it looks great, and it brings both of us plenty of good times. I’m just wondering why many people feel it’s up to _me_ to in essence “prove” somehow that it was a good decision on his mother’s part to keep this perfectly good body part whole and untouched, rather than up to a “pro-circ”-er to prove that a part should have been lopped off at birth. Do you at least understand the rationale here? Where are you figuring that people feel “it’s up to ‘_you_’ to in essence “prove” somehow that it was a good decision…”? Who here, has said that people who are uncircumcised, or their mates have to “prove” anything about their private parts, or the decisions that led to their condition? What people here ARE saying is “we have just as MUCH right to our choices as anti circs do to theirs and our choices/preferences are JUST as valid as yours”. How do you then translate that as you and your fellow anti circs having to 'prove" your choice is a “good” one? What people are also saying is “look, i’m cut, I’m happy, or MORE than happy with it, and I do NOT appreciate it being referred to as mutilated, or have it made into some issue that I “should” somehow be all angry, deprived feeling and so on about”. And that they be ALLOWED that without the constant refrain of “but it’s so WRONG, aren’t you enraged…ad nauseum”! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/113 "2004-06-30T21:54:58Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > No, actually, it doesn’t, because nobody has proved harm in the first place! Jesus, I get that you people are obsessed with yours and other people’s dicks, but that’s no excuse for assuming that your side is right without evidence. Circumcision is something commonly practiced without any ill effects at all. Before you have the right to tell people that a harmless practice should be outlawed, you have to prove that it is harmful. I don’t have to prove a damn thing, I have thousands of years of history on my side. Circumcision _ **IS** _ harm (Physical injury or damage). I’m not obsessed with other people’s dicks, on the contrary, I’d rather they were left in charge of their owners. ---
**Author:** ![stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@stately\_plump\_buck\_mulligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stately_plump_buck_mulligan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/114 "2004-06-30T22:01:39Z")
CanvasShoes, I am not saying that all or even most or even many pro-circs are asking me to prove such a thing. I am saying that when someone says something like > [@](#): > > And I notice that the anti circ-crowd still hasen’t posted anything aproaching proof or a scientific basis for their claims, continuing to rely on anecdotes from whiney little fucks. it feels to me as if I’m being asked to prove that the natural state of the penis is fine and does not require forced alteration by another party. I’m sorry if I worded my thoughts on this confusingly. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/115 "2004-06-30T22:08:02Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Hypothetical: > > Family adopts a 12 year old boy. Family’s religion dictates that boys are circumcised. Adopted boy is not already circumcised. Would you see it as their right to circumcise him, being the legal parents and doing so as a matter of choosing their kid’s religion? Shoot the hostage. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/116 "2004-06-30T22:18:19Z")
FWIW, **Catsix** , it’s my understanding that neither Judaism nor Islam require circumcision of converts. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/117 "2004-06-30T22:35:00Z")
> [@stately plump buck mulligan](#): > > CanvasShoes, I am not saying that all or even most or even many pro-circs are asking me to prove such a thing. I am saying that when someone says something like > > > [@](#): > > > > And I notice that the anti circ-crowd still hasen’t posted anything aproaching proof or a scientific basis for their claims, continuing to rely on anecdotes from whiney little fucks. > > it feels to me as if I’m being asked to prove that the natural state of the penis is fine and does not require forced alteration by another party. I’m sorry if I worded my thoughts on this confusingly. Ah, okay. Sorry, I wasn’t meaning to get on your in your post, just wondering where you’d gotten that idea. But at any rate, I can’t speak for miller, but I don’t think he was talking to opinions like yours but of those like JDT’s and the other crazies in the threads linked to on the first page of this thread. And to those who’ve somewhat referred to how their parents “ruined” their lives by having this performed. I have to agree wholeheartedly with him there, whatEVER happened to a person in childhood (whether it be circumcision, child abuse, molestation), however horrible you’re (collective you) a grown up now, deal with it yes, but don’t use it as an excuse for all of your problems in life. I’m pretty sure he was talking to them, and not to opinions such as yours. ---
**Author:** ![Chotii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Chotii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chotii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/118 "2004-06-30T22:46:08Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > No, actually, it doesn’t, because nobody has proved harm in the first place! … Circumcision is something commonly practiced without any ill effects at all. Before you have the right to tell people that a harmless practice should be outlawed, you have to prove that it is harmful. I don’t have to prove a damn thing, I have thousands of years of history on my side. Not harmful, except for the little boys who, even in westernised countries where they are cut in hospitals, occasionally die, get gangrene and have to have their penises removed, are accidentally de-glansed, or who have so much skin taken off that erections in childhood are excrutiating, never mind when they mature and their penises grow to adult size. (And this doesn’t count the young men who die every day even now in ‘rite of passage’ circumcisions all over the world.) Oh, right. They don’t count because there aren’t very many of them. Right, I forgot. Not harmful, because any man who decided that he wished he’d been left normal, that he likes the appearance of the natural thing only his doesn’t look that way because he had surgery as a baby, or because his entire frenulum has been removed and he just about can’t get enough of the right kind of stimulation to reach orgasm…well, such a man is just a whiner and he should be happy he HAS a cock, and to shut up, and get the 95% of sex that’s really in his mind straight and everything will just be fine. Right. Those men don’t count because they obviously have mental problems, disregard them, they don’t matter. Not harmful, because _everyone_ should be happy with the state of body they’re altered to have, just because _most_ people are. Right. Excuse me. I understand the rules of this argument now. **Weirddave** is right about all of this - the lack of harm, the thousand years of undocumented history, the utter sexual delight felt by every single cut man - because minority experiences, by their very nature, are irrelevant and must be dismissed out of hand. You win. ---
**Author:** ![Chotii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Chotii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chotii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/119 "2004-06-30T22:50:26Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > But at any rate, I can’t speak for miller, but I don’t think he was talking to opinions like yours but of those like JDT’s and the other crazies in the threads linked to on the first page of this thread. And to those who’ve somewhat referred to how their parents “ruined” their lives by having this performed. There are some men whose ability to enjoy sex has been effectively ruined by circumcision. You don’t mostly hear about them. They live quiet, non-sexual lives because they’ve given up on even trying. But they do exist. And it might well have been avoided. > [@](#): > > I have to agree wholeheartedly with him there, whatEVER happened to a person in childhood (whether it be circumcision, child abuse, molestation), however horrible you’re (collective you) a grown up now, deal with it yes, but don’t use it as an excuse for all of your problems in life. I’m pretty sure he was talking to them, and not to opinions such as yours. As for the men who are working on restoration, I see no reason to say that most of them are using circumcision as an excuse for all their problems. At least, I don’t hear them saying this on the mailing list. Many of them do feel better about themselves, calmer, whatever, as their restoration proceeds, and I fail to see how this is a bad thing. Some of them are doing it for aesthetics. Some because they hope for better sensitivity. Some because they feel they’re missing a part of themselves. I’m sure there are other reasons, as many reasons as there are men. Some are angry. Some are just delighted to find a way to restore. This _is_ part of how they’re “dealing with it”, and I’m boggled at the people who seem to think it’s a waste of time. It’s not a waste of time for _them_ or they wouldn’t bother. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619/120 "2004-06-30T22:55:47Z")
And the penises are jerking all over the place, folks. Er, knees, I mean. The knees are jerking. Sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-debate-why-the-obsession/252619.md?page=7)