# Circumcision = rights abuse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2004, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081 "2004-01-18T08:38:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![flapcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@flapcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flapcats)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/1 "2004-01-18T08:38:10Z")
This site: [http://www.foreskin-restoration.netfirms.com/penis\_types.htm](http://www.foreskin-restoration.netfirms.com/penis_types.htm) Has a statement at the bottom that got me thinking: “The circumcision of any child without unavoidable medical need is an abuse of human rights of the child and the adult the child will become. It is a barbaric act of sexual abuse which degrades and shames any society that allows it.” Since many dopers are American and it seems that many Americans are circumsised - what are your thoughts on circumcision? Is it abuse? (Ignore the bit about ‘shames any society that allows it’ I’m not interested in that debate). ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/2 "2004-01-18T09:02:39Z")
Do a search for poster “Jack Dean Tyler” (hopefully, the reindexing has proceeded that far by now). And be amazed. ---
**Author:** ![flapcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@flapcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flapcats)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/3 "2004-01-18T09:20:23Z")
Ah, Jack Dean Tyler. Well, I’m not looking to advocate either side. A move to IMHO might help this thread… ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/4 "2004-01-18T09:26:06Z")
Isn’t that the TugAhoy site you linked to? I’m sorry. It’s a shame, but we will never again be able to have a serious discussion about circumcision on these boards. JDT ruined the topic forever. Now, I’m off to power suck some nipples. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/5 "2004-01-18T17:45:58Z")
I’m going to avoid another circumcision debate but have to comment on the beauty of having **Smeghead** (member) rising up to give a cutting remark on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/6 "2004-01-18T19:05:47Z")
My answer is simply. I don’t care one way or another. I was cut and it doesn’t bother me. However, if I had a kid and had the choice, I don’t know whether I would do it or not. Considering there’s a ways to go before that becomes an issue, I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/7 "2004-01-18T19:57:36Z")
> [@](#): > > “The circumcision of any child without unavoidable medical need is an abuse of human rights of the child and the adult the child will become. It is a barbaric act of sexual abuse which degrades and shames any society that allows it.” The only word I’d use for that is “stupid.” > [@](#): > > Since many dopers are American and it seems that many Americans are circumsised - what are your thoughts on circumcision? Is it abuse? I don’t think it’s abuse. I’m not even convinced it has no benefits, and if it has benefits it’s hardly likely to be abuse. This would be a better debate if the people opposed to circumcision didn’t go to excess like the quote above. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/8 "2004-01-18T20:11:55Z")
Well, just to throw some fuel on the fire, there is evidence that circumcision does cut down on HIV transmission. > [@](#): > > The finding that circumcision afforded protection against HIV infection, with no infections among 50 HIV-negative circumcised men as compared to 40 infections among 137 uncircumcised men, suggests another potential biological method of HIV prevention From [My dear old alma mater](http://www.hopkins-aids.edu/publications/report/may00_1.html) in 2000 and more recently > [@](#): > > Results of a prospective cohort study of 2,298 Indian men suggests that circumcision is associated with a “profound 8-fold reduction in HIV-1 risk,” Johns Hopkins researchers reported here at the 41st annual meeting of the Infectious Diseases Society of America (IDSA). from [http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/462816](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/462816) in 10/2003. I wonder what old **JDT** would say to that. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/9 "2004-01-18T20:33:35Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Well, just to throw some fuel on the fire, there is evidence that circumcision does cut down on HIV transmission. > > From [My dear old alma mater](http://www.hopkins-aids.edu/publications/report/may00_1.html) in 2000 and more recently from [http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/462816](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/462816) in 10/2003. > > I wonder what old **JDT** would say to that. Both of those studies were conducted in third-world nations (Uganda and India). The older study that shows that circumcision decreases STDs was conducted on chimney sweeps. Be wary of possible confounding factors when interpreting these studies. They should not be assumed to apply to the general population of developed nations such as the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/10 "2004-01-18T20:38:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Both of those studies were conducted in third-world nations (Uganda and India). The older study that shows that circumcision decreases STDs was conducted on chimney sweeps. Be wary of possible confounding factors when interpreting these studies. They should not be assumed to apply to the general population of developed nations such as the United States. Why is that so? India might be considered a developing nation (I’m not positive), but I’m not sure some of the characteristics assigned to Third World nations apply to India. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/11 "2004-01-18T20:43:39Z")
There’s a First Amendment issue to it as well. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/12 "2004-01-18T21:01:09Z")
Father of two boys here. We thought long and hard [snicker] about it, and basically it boils down to this…here in the US, the vast, vast majority of males are circumcised. When you get into more white and educated areas (sorry to put that indelicately), there are virtually no uncircumcised males. Circumcision hurts alot, I’m sure. I just asked my 5 yo if he remembers his penis hurting. Nope. But I’m sure if he wasn’t circumcised, 20 years from now, he’d remember being called “teabag”, “sleeve” “trunk” and other such nonsense like I remember happening to an unfortunate lad from my junior high school. Silly as it might sound, we figured a bit of physical pain he won’t remember is better than psychological pain that he will. It was a tough decision for us. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/13 "2004-01-18T21:13:43Z")
If the kid was circumcized just after birth in the hospital, or in the Jewish tradition (at 8 days old), there’s no way he’d remember it. If he was a few years old, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/14 "2004-01-18T21:24:53Z")
They generally do it mere hours after birth… ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/15 "2004-01-18T21:44:26Z")
Basically, there’s some marginal medical benefit to it that’s not really well established, but isn’t entirely ignorable either (AIDS transmission and penis cancer); against that, you have tug-ahoy vendors and the Jack Dean Tylers of the world screaming about medical conspiracies to sexually abuse men as infants, and some very anecdotal evidence about greater sexual pleasure either way. If I have a boy, I’ll probably do it, unless my wife feels strongly the other way. It’s just not something to lose sleep over. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/16 "2004-01-19T04:43:53Z")
I would not cut off any living, sensitive part of my (hypothetical) offspring without a damned good reason. I do not believe that such a reason exists in this case. I feel similarly about piercing infants’ ears, shaping their heads into cones, or tattooing them. I an uncut, white, and educated. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/17 "2004-01-19T05:19:46Z")
> [@](#): > > I feel similarly about piercing infants’ ears, shaping their heads into cones, or tattooing them. Except that those things are rituals and definitely have no health benefits, whereas there’s evidence that circumcision has some, so it’s not totally comparable. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/18 "2004-01-19T07:06:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Except that those things are rituals and definitely have no health benefits, whereas there’s evidence that circumcision has some, so it’s not totally comparable. Well, I’d say that there are no _obvious_ health benefits to those particular acts. I’m sure that if people looked hard enough they could find something beneficial about those rituals. In any case, I mentioned them only to point out that I classify them similarly to circumcision. I’m not wedded to those particular examples. I can think of many other possible body modifications one could make upon on infant that clearly would have some health benefits. (For example, routinely removing the breast tissue of infant females. This would guarantee that they would never, ever get breast cancer.) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/19 "2004-01-19T07:36:41Z")
> [@An Arky](#): > > When you get into more white and educated areas (sorry to put that indelicately), there are virtually no uncircumcised males. > [@](#): > > But I’m sure if he wasn’t circumcised, 20 years from now, he’d remember being called “teabag”, “sleeve” “trunk” and other such nonsense like I remember happening to an unfortunate lad from my junior high school. Am I the only one who read these two sentences and wonderif circumcision might be more prevalent in _un_educated areas? 😉 My son is uncircumcised. Since circumcision is primarily a religious act, and we’re an unreligious family, it didn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081/20 "2004-01-19T07:36:46Z")
> [@](#): > > (For example, routinely removing the breast tissue of infant females. This would guarantee that they would never, ever get breast cancer.) I’m not sure it would, and it would make breastfeeding tough. Maybe I’m just picking on your examples, but even if you’re able to come up with some silly justification for tattooing infants, if circumcision reduces the risks for penile cancer and HIV/AIDS, that’s an unquestionable benefit. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision-rights-abuse/225081.md?page=2)