# circumcision
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 13, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076 "2003-10-13T00:31:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@croakdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/croakdale)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/21 "2003-10-13T14:49:18Z")
The master speaks
[http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a940128.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a940128.html)
I, for one, coming from a country where circumcision is unusual, do find the practice somewhat repulsive. To put a child through a surgical procedure, albeit minor, for no real benefit, seems crazy.
Doctor Jackson, I would contend that your doctor recommended circumcision for cultural reasons, rather than medical. Chances are her husband and male family members (:D) were circumcised, so she views it as normal. I think Cecils article makes it clear that any claims about the medical benefits are dubious.
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### Author:  [@croakdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/croakdale)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/22 "2003-10-13T14:55:26Z")
In response to TVAA:
In my own experience hygiene is not a problem. Roll back, wash, roll forward. Easy.
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### Author:  [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/23 "2003-10-13T14:56:23Z")
Following my own anology and **Doctor Jackson** ’s “decision process” I’m off to chop off my offspring’s toes. Studies have shown this to be a 100% preventative cure for in-growing toenails.
Toenail cutting is “also an issue” for fully-toed children. I realize that it’s “vanishingly rare”, but those toes can go septic if badly cut. So I think that my in no way silly decision will “virtually eliminate any risk of future disease with a simple, safe procedure.”
I’m not sure how they’ll feel about this, but since I’m not asking their permission and they’ll not ever remember having them, I guess they’re not going to miss them.
:rolleyes: You can defend circumcision if you wish, but let’s just quit pretending the medical excuses have any sensible grounding in medical fact, shall we?
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### Author:  [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/24 "2003-10-13T15:00:52Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Futile Gesture \*
> \*\*Following my own anology \*\*
Or even **analogy**.
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### Author:  [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/25 "2003-10-13T20:30:29Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by yojimbo \*
> \*\*[Click here for all your Jack Dean Tyler needs](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47631) \*\*
Ah, so it’s you and **London\_Calling** who’ve been channeling the illlustrious **JDT**. Glad you decided to come clean!
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### Author:  [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/26 "2003-10-13T20:48:21Z")
Oh, and **Smeghead** , too. The Tug-Ahoy reference slipped right past me.
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### Author:  [@El\_Gui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Gui)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/27 "2003-10-13T21:56:43Z")
My parents are Catholic (though not die-hard or anything). I was born in Mexico and left “as is”, but my younger brother was born in the states and had his yoohoo scalped.
I finally had the nerve to get a clipping myself at the age of 31. Surprisingly, there was no pain. Just a bit of discomfort during the procedure (the occasional instances when the anesthetic wasn’t enough to mask all sensation, it would fee like getting a small paper cut).
And waking up in the morning for the following couple of weeks was NOT something I enjoyed.
Even the first of about five or six numbing shots to the base of the penis wasn’t too bad. Although a Valium beforehand would’ve been nice!
In comparison, Lasik eye surgery was more _psychologically_ uncomfortable (even with a Valium), though that procedure involved little to no physical discomfort.
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### Author:  [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/28 "2003-10-14T04:52:59Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by doctordoowop \*
> \*\*wait til phimosis sets in - circumcision as a teen or adult is torture-no, there is general anesthsia, but the recovery hurts a great deal(so I hear). \*\*
Can you provide the citation that demonstrates that phimosis afflicts all uncircumcized men or even the majority?
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### Author:  [@effac3d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/effac3d)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/29 "2003-10-14T12:04:33Z")
Does anyone know the rate of melanoma developing on the ear lobes?
A case could be made for removing them neonatally to prevent skin cancer,it would make at least as much sense as circumcision.
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### Author:  [@kris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kris)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/30 "2003-10-14T13:17:10Z")
Yes parents are your legal guardians and all that but I feel that it is up to the actual child.
It is their body and if later in life they wish to be circumcised, all be it more painfully, than it is up to them.
I think it is completely irresponsible for a parent to take such a decision when it will never affect them and it will affect the child for the rest of their life. Who are they to take that decision with a body that does not belong to them?
The “medical grounds” for circumcision are practically non existent. It “may” help against an already extremely rare disease. Come on. Maybe I should get my head amputated, I’ve heard its great against headaches, colds, eye ear and nose problems and you can save a fortune on hair cuts. Let’s all go and be decapitated.
It is a pointless procedure.
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### Author:  [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/31 "2003-10-14T13:40:44Z")
Sigh. I’m so glad some of you have the world all figured out. Everything is black and white, no shades of gray. Must be nice to live in that world. In the world I where I live there is something called research. Sometimes it conflicts, making decisions much tougher. Want examples of this research? Gladly:
> **[Bereitschaftspraxen ► Schnell die offene Arztpraxis finden!](https://bereitschaftspraxen.de/)**
>
> ✓ Bereitschaftspraxen in Ihrer Nähe ✅ Gratis Erste Hilfe Handbücher ✅ Gratis Auto Rettungskarten ✓ Wichtige Notfallnummern ✓ Inland & Ausland
> [@](#):
>
> The exact cause of cancer of the penis is not known. It is thought to be related to general hygiene and is much less common in men who have had all or part of their foreskin removed (been circumcised) soon after birth. This is because men who have not been circumcised may find it more difficult to pull back the foreskin enough to clean thoroughly underneath. Infection with a type of virus that causes penile warts also increases the risk of cancer of the penis.
[http://www.findarticles.com/cf\_dls/g2601/0010/2601001036/p1/article.jhtml](http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/g2601/0010/2601001036/p1/article.jhtml)
> [@](#):
>
> The Gale Encyclopedia of Medicine
> **Description**
> Cancer of the penis is a rare disease. It occurs most often in men who were not circumcised as infants.
> **Causes & symptoms**
> The cause of penile cancer is unknown. There does, however, appear to be a connection between development of the disease and lack of personal hygiene. Failing to regularly and thoroughly cleanse the part of the penis covered by the foreskin increases the risk of developing the disease.
[http://www.meb.uni-bonn.de/cancer.gov/CDR0000062897.html](http://www.meb.uni-bonn.de/cancer.gov/CDR0000062897.html)
> [@](#):
>
> Penile cancer is rare in most developed nations, including the United States, where the rate is less than 1 per 100,000 men per year. Some studies suggest an association between human papillomavirus (HPV) infection and penile cancer. [1] [2] [3] [4] Observational studies have shown a lower prevalence of penile HPV in men who have been circumcised (odds ratio=0.37; 95% confidence interval 0.16 to 0.85). [5] Some, but not all, observational studies also suggest that male newborn circumcision is associated with a decreased risk of penile cancer. [6] [7] Using published data, Christakis and colleagues estimated that if the relationship is causal, the number needed to treat was about 909 circumcisions to prevent a single case of invasive penile cancer. [8]
[http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/circumcision990113.html](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/circumcision990113.html)
> [@](#):
>
> Dr. Alexander Walker is chairman of the Department of Epidemiology at the Harvard School of Public Health. Every year he reviews hundreds of published medical studies on all kinds of subjects. At our request, he evaluated more than a dozen studies selected by Wiswell and Denniston to support their opposing viewpoints.
> “Overall, the medical literature comes down pretty strongly and pretty consistently on the side of net benefit for routine circumcision in newborns,” Walker reports. “I had assumed just from what I’d heard generally that it would be more of a toss up. And a lot of the data that we’re talking about has really evolved in the last 10 or 15 years.”
> However, Walker also makes it clear that the benefits of circumcision are statistically quite small.
So what the studies say to me, especially the last one _which compares opposing studies_, is that there IS a correlation between circumcision and penile cancer and that medical evidence FAVORS circumcision even though the risk is statistically small.
As to the scare tactic that the “loss of nerve endings” crowd gets so worked up about, I quote further from the ABC News article:
> [@](#):
>
> Dr. Richard Kogan is a psychiatrist and sex therapist who has counseled more than 3,000 men in his practice in the Human Sexuality Program of New York Presbyterian Hospital. “There’s plenty of opportunity for sexual pleasure,” he says, “even with the removal of foreskin.”
> Kogan says none of his patients has ever linked circumcision to loss of sexual sensation. And that includes men who have been circumcised in adulthood and who could compare pre- and post-surgery sensation.
Read the second paragraph in that quote again. While the “loss of sensation” argument sounds logical, it is not borne out by facts. I have seen several studies that support Dr. Kogan’s observations, some of which have been brought up on this board before in other circumcision threads. I have yet to see a study that finds any loss of sexual pleasure in circumcised men. Another study:
[http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/453301](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/453301) (free registration required)
> [@](#):
>
> “We demonstrated that there are no significant differences in penile sensation between circumcised and uncircumcised men with respect to vibration, spatial perception, pressure, warm and cold thermal thresholds in both patients with and without erectile dysfunction,” the researchers conclude.
Stop with the scare tactics and stick with the facts or move on over to IMHO.
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### Author:  [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/32 "2003-10-14T14:00:43Z")
**Doctor Jackson** , are you aware how incredibly rare penile cancer is even in a uncircumized population? I’d wager even with modern surgical techniques you are sevral orders more likely to suffer a botched circumiscion than get penile cancer. Even then it is generally recognised that there is no relation between penile cancer and being uncircumized:
> [@](#):
>
> The alleged relationship between “lack of circumcision” and genital cancers formerly implicated smegma or smegma-borne pathogens as the causative agent. Only two histologic studies of human smegma ever have been conducted, both of which found it to be perfectly harmless. Smegma is composed of secretions of ectopic sebaceous glands in the prepuce mixed with secretions of the prostate, seminal vesicles, mucin from the urethral glands, and desquamated epithelial cells.10,12
>
> The hypothesis that human male smegma is carcinogenic was first formulated in 1932 by circumcision promoter Abraham L. Wolbarst, M.D.1. Wolbarst also believed that circumcision prevented epilepsy. (In the early part of the 20th Century, the paroxysm of masturbation in children was often misidentified as an epileptic seizure.) Wolbarst wrote: “[Circumcision] diminishes the tendency to masturbation, convulsions and other reflex phenomena of local irritation.” Wolbarst’s beliefs about circumcision were shared by other writers, such as Peter Remondino and Abraham Ravich.
>
> No laboratory or clinical research had been done on the subject at the time. Regardless, Wolbarst’s hypothesis about smegma and cancer found its way into early medical textbooks. In the 1950s a few experiments were done to test the hypothesis by injecting horse smegma into wounds made in the backs of mice. There were clinical studies that attempted to induce cancer by introducing smegma subcutaneously and intravaginally: No carcinomas could be induced.
>
> The smegma hypothesis was finally disproven by an exhaustive study by Reddy2 in 1963. His results were: “The conviction that human smegma is a carcinogen could not be substantiated.”
>
> Preston established quite clearly that there was little evidence to support a relationship between lack of circumcision and penile cancer, cervical cancer, or cancer of the prostate in 1970 but he was unable to identify the causative agent at that time,6 while Leitch7 did the same in Australia.
>
> Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis.8
>
> Boczko et al. found numerous reports of penile cancer in circumcised men, thus conclusively disproving Wolbarst’s false claims of protection from penile cancer by circumcision.9
>
> In “Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy,” Edward Wallerstein writes 14: “If infant circumcision reduces penile cancer we could expect to see proportionately less penile cancer in circumcising nations as compared to noncircumcising ones. No such difference is found.” Wallerstein reports that, for various years between 1966 and 1972, the annual rate of new cases of penile cancer was 0.8 for the United States (which circumcises), and 0.5 for Finland, 0.9 for Denmark and 1.1 for both Norway and Sweden (all of which do not). None of these differences is statistically significant. Further, within the same time frame, both France and the United States had the same rate, 0.3, of deaths due to penile cancer.12
>
> The link between the presence of human papillovirus (HPV) and genital cancer was established in the 1980s.15,17,18,19,20 Hellberg et al. (1986) identified tobacco use as another risk factor for cancer of the penis. Poland identified the human papilloma virus (HPV) types 16 and 18 as the cause of penile and cervical cancers in 1990. Cervical cancer has epidemiologic similarities to venereal disease. The human papilloma virus is spread by sexual contact.28 DNA sequences from HPV have been identified in more than 50 percent of cervical cancers tested by 1989.25
>
> In February 1996, representatives of the American Cancer Society stated in a letter to the American Academy of Pediatrics:
>
> The American Cancer Society does not consider routine circumcision to be a valid or effective measure to prevent such [genital] cancers. Research suggesting a pattern in the circumcision status of partners of women with cervical cancer is methodologically flawed, outdated and has not been taken seriously in the medical community for decades.
"
[http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/](http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/)
Ther is no justifiable medical reason to carry out this procedure
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### Author:  [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/33 "2003-10-14T14:19:40Z")
All very interesting **Doctor Jackson** , but there’s nothing there that convinces that surgery is called for.
As has been pointed out plenty of times in this thread; just because cutting something off stops it being a remotely possible cause of a rare problem does not make it generally acceptable medical practice. Studies prove people with no feet rarely get bunions. Is this an argument for cutting your feet off?
Whether it has an impact on loss of sensation is hardly the point. But you can’t possibly be arguing that **not** having something that is a natural and functional part of the male human body, having been so for millions of years, is just as good as having it?
And the only scare tactic I see here is in your argument. Others say; “don’t do this, don’t worry”. You say; “cut it off or risk cancer!”
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/34 "2003-10-14T14:24:20Z")
**Doctor Jackson** , surely teaching the kid to wash his knob properly would have been easier…?
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### Author:  [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/35 "2003-10-14T17:09:29Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by croakdale \*
> \*\*In response to TVAA:
> In my own experience hygiene is not a problem. Roll back, wash, roll forward. Easy. \*\*
…roll back, roll forward, roll back, roll forwar…OOOOHHH!!!
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### Author:  [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/36 "2003-10-14T17:09:59Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by croakdale \*
> \*\*In response to TVAA:
> In my own experience hygiene is not a problem. Roll back, wash, roll forward. Easy. \*\*
…roll back, roll forward, roll back, roll forwar…OOOOHHH!!!😃
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### Author:  [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/37 "2003-10-14T17:11:30Z")
“Creation science”, meet “circumcision science”. I’m sure you both will find you you have a great deal in common.
Step 1: Enshrine cultural prejudice.
Step 2: Cherry-pick data to further enshrine cultural prejudice.
Step 3: Profit.
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### Author:  [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/38 "2003-10-14T17:27:46Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Futile Gesture \*
> **Studies prove people with no feet rarely get bunions. Is this an argument for cutting your feet off?**
Are you really trying to compare bunions to cancer?
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### Author:  [@hedra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hedra)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/39 "2003-10-14T17:45:52Z")
The AAP does not recommend routine infant circumcision. That’s based on careful review of the research. There are a few pros to having it done (reduced risk of infection under the foreskin being the major issue), and a more than equal number of minuses. The issues that are ‘solved’ by circumcision can all be managed by behavioral changes (proper hygeine), and the issues that are ‘caused’ by circumcision cannot be managed by behavioral changes, nor can they always be repaired. Therefore, since one side can be moderated by personal choice, and the other cannot, there is no contest. Routine application of the procedure is simply not recommended by the main medical group in charge of determining medical practice in pediatric care in the USA. Individual decision based on family medical history, and even cultural/religious reasons are still considered acceptable to the AAP. Just not routine, standard, baseline approach.
Medical history decisions make sense. And deeply held religious ones I can also comprehend. I just don’t get the ‘look like dad’ one. It just isn’t that hard to explain the difference.
Oh, and by the way, a minor surgical tweak fixes phimosis if anti-inflammatories do not (Preputial plasty, basically loosen the muscle band if it tends to contract too much or is subject to repeated inflammation). But most of the time, phimosis is an inflammatory reaction that reduces the stretchiness of the skin - some topical cremes (more rolling things back and forth, ooh!), and you’re golden again. No need for major surgery.
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### Author:  [@hedra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hedra)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/circumcision/207076/40 "2003-10-14T17:50:51Z")
We do not cut off girls’ breasts at birth, despite breast cancer being vastly more common than penile cancer. Why not? It would prevent the problem, and save vast numbers of lives. And there are alternatives for breastfeeding. Even if it were easy to do, do you think we’d approve? What’s the difference? They’re both sexual parts, both involved in procreative activities, both part of the person’s ‘esthetic sense of self’… They’ll never miss them if they don’t have them.
Heck there are even ethics questions about pre-emptive mastectomy in families that carry specific genes involved in breast cancer. How much more so should there be ethics questions about cutting off a functional body part in infancy without consent, without any kind of evidence-based determination of who should have that part removed and who should not?
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