# Cis Women- Do you have an issue with trans women who've not had SRS in the women's room? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327 "2013-08-27T18:40:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/61 "2013-08-28T00:06:53Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > This reminds me of another issue with this, which is cis women who present as masculine, either by choice or because of hormone issues. I’ve known a couple women who had PCOS who grew facial hair. Like, a lot of it. I’ve known cis women who were extremely butch (and no, they weren’t all lesbians) and didn’t immediately present as female when you met them. What about them? Where are they supposed to pee? Do they have to show you their naturally born vaginas before they can use the fucking toilet? > > I also had the great pleasure a few weeks ago to meet a young woman about a week into her transition, and I swear to you _I had no idea until she told me_. None. She could have walked into a thousand women’s restrooms, and no one would have batted an eyelash. Should she have to out herself everywhere she goes and use men’s room, despite passing as female, just because she still has a penis? _ **WHY???** _ If person intends to stand up in the stall like a man and urinate like a man, yes, they should go to the men’s room. They are still too attached to the gender identity of being male. They are still living part of their life as a male. ---
**Author:** ![Thylacine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thylacine/32/1143_2.png) [@Thylacine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thylacine)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/62 "2013-08-28T00:11:36Z")
I am a woman often mistaken for a man, not that I try, I just missed the girly part of being female - and the boobs damnit. I have had security called on me countless times for the simple act of entering a public ladies toilet for the purpose of emptying my bladder in a private stall. My biggest horror is when a child in my care needs a toilet, that is when it really gets icky and threatening. Change rooms are also a laugh riot I can tell you. I take it I am not really a woman in my soul as people often get it wrong and I don’t make an effort to put on a dress for the clarity of others before heading in to a restroom :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/63 "2013-08-28T00:21:59Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If person intends to stand up in the stall like a man and urinate like a man, yes, they should go to the men’s room. They are still too attached to the gender identity of being male. They are still living part of their life as a male. Before you go organizing the torches and pitchforks, you should probably know that some medical conditions, as well as some corset related fashion choices, make it much easier for a woman with a vagina to use the toilet with her feet pointing towards the wall behind the toilet. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/64 "2013-08-28T00:31:33Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If person intends to stand up in the stall like a man and urinate like a man, yes, they should go to the men’s room. They are still too attached to the gender identity of being male. They are still living part of their life as a male. Ok, well if you find some trans ladies doing that, you let us know, ok? Otherwise, as has been stated, sometimes cis women stand to pee. And sometimes cis men sit to pee. It doesn’t really determine anything. So don’t go banging on bathroom doors because someone’s feet are pointed the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/65 "2013-08-28T00:36:48Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Yeah, I think there’s a little confusion here. What I meant was not, “Have you ever seen a trans woman who retained masculine traits and you could tell she was trans?” because, duh. That happens. What I meant was, “Have you ever seen a man try and use the women’s room by claiming he ‘felt like a woman’ that day?” which I won’t say never happens, but I’ve never seen it, nor have I ever met anyone who’s seen it. I suspect it’s an urban legend. Right. I think we’re on the same page? It’s not like we’ve got random men walking into the little girls’ room, saying they feel dainty, and we’re like “OK, cool.” I voted no problem, but if the person just looked like a straight up dude, then my answer changes. And that’s because if just some guy walked into the women’s room and claimed he was feeling feminine, I just wouldn’t buy it. Even though I guess this is possible, I’d assume he was a lying pervert and this wouldn’t be kosher. Fortunately, that has never happened in all my years. Now if there were a trans woman who retained some masculine physical attributes, meh. Wouldn’t care at all. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/66 "2013-08-28T00:40:16Z")
We’re talking about someone who is living as a woman, right? I’d rather she use the ladies room where it’ll severely reduce the odds of some asshole attacking her for being different than use the mens. (obviously she can use the mens but…) If the person still looked like a guy, you know with a beard and stuff, I’d be much less welcoming. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/67 "2013-08-28T00:47:21Z")
ZPG Zealot’s repeated view seems to be that any true transperson would pass completely and have no problems. Whereas the fakes don’t pass and deserve to be ousted. This is so patently and demonstrably false, it’s ludicrous. I just…I don’t even know what to say. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/68 "2013-08-28T00:47:37Z")
What would be the big deal if a man used the women’s restroom? Or vice versa? There are a surprising number of people born of indeterminate sex. This binary sorting urge is really unfair to them. Some people are neither male nor female, so why should they have to pick one? How about just bathrooms for humans? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/69 "2013-08-28T00:51:07Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > I voted no problem, but if the person just looked like a straight up dude, then my answer changes. And that’s because if just some guy walked into the women’s room and claimed he was feeling feminine, I just wouldn’t buy it. No sane transwoman who isn’t making a political statement, performance art, or is just gauche beyond all belief, would go into the ladies’ unless they were presenting female. I’ve never witnessed a transperson presenting male and doing it, or even androgynously going in. I’ve never even heard of it. I’m sure someone has done it, but I’m not going to concern myself with the outliers and ludicrous exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/70 "2013-08-28T00:51:12Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Huh? So yes, sometimes you can tell that the person wasn’t born biologically a female, but so? A transgender woman who enters a women’s restroom isn’t a “pervert.” We’re not talking some dude in a wig who’s there to creep on ladies. \*That \*is a pervert. We’re talking someone who clearly identifies and presents as a woman. I’d be cool with that. > > And obviously I wouldn’t have a problem if I couldn’t tell because, you know, I wouldn’t be able to tell. Are there not trans women who prefer to have sex with females? Are there not trans women who are perverts and peepers? I mean, they are people just like anyone else, gender issue aside. I mean I don’t get the whole only masculine males are perverts thing here. Ladies would you have a problem with a lesbian in the Ladies Room? How about a gay man? How about a heterosexual man who is a transvestite? So, if you DO have problems with some people being in the “wrong” restroom, which is it? Their sex at birth, their sexual preference, their appearance, or their possible pervert status? My point is, why have anything but unisex restrooms? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/71 "2013-08-28T00:59:16Z")
I don’t care. If she is presenting as a woman, I don’t care about her shoulder-hip ratio. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/72 "2013-08-28T01:04:32Z")
Recently a female college student was raped in a campus women’s restroom by a male attacker. Now at first this might sound like “evidence” as to why men should not be permitted in such places, but precisely BECAUSE it was not a unisex bathroom, he was able to hide and wait with the knowledge that only women would be likely to enter the bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/73 "2013-08-28T01:18:13Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Huh? So yes, sometimes you can tell that the person wasn’t born biologically a female, but so? A transgender woman who enters a women’s restroom isn’t a “pervert.” We’re not talking some dude in a wig who’s there to creep on ladies. \*That \*is a pervert. We’re talking someone who clearly identifies and presents as a woman. I’d be cool with that. Oh, I was just commenting on what someone had said about if a man would just decide he was a woman today or something just so he could use the women’s room. I’m not talking about people who identify as women but you can tell they aren’t biologically women. I guess I should have quoted the comment I was responding to. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/74 "2013-08-28T01:31:25Z")
In Italy we saw many places where there was a common area with sinks, towels etc. and then stalls with the walls all the way to the floor, like little rooms. Some of them had both a toilet and a urinal. Seems like the perfect solution. I doubt it’s more expensive either as you need fewer sinks, mirrors and towels, and every stall was wide enough to accommodate a wheelchair as well. I wish we could magically will these into being in the US so we could talk about something more uplifting. I cannot imagine anything more torturous than after having spent one’s entire life in the “wrong” body and finally acknowledging the problem and setting out to fix it, with all the trauma inherent in this, to then discover that you cannot even go to the bathroom without fear. I admire anyone who has this much courage and I really admire what **bobkitty** said earlier about offering to go along. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/75 "2013-08-28T01:32:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Are there not trans women who prefer to have sex with females? Are there not trans women who are perverts and peepers? I mean, they are people just like anyone else, gender issue aside. > > I mean I don’t get the whole only masculine males are perverts thing here. > > … > > My point is, why have anything but unisex restrooms? What are you talking about? You can make your case for unisex restrooms without the rest of this silliness. Of course there are trans people who are perverts and of course creepiness isn’t the sole domain of masculine males. That was never my point. In response to “It is at times obvious if the person was born biologically male. Go to the men’s room, pervs,” I say we’re not talking “pervs” here – Okay, stop. This is where you’re pretending to get tripped up. Obviously, trans pervs exist, but I don’t reckon being a trans woman who was clearly born biologically male entering the women’s room is a sign of perversion. I mean, she can be a creep, the same way anyone in the women’s room potentially can be, but I assumed that was a given. Now just some dude going into the women’s room? Far more likely than not that he is a pervert. Edit: Black, I responding to a post you made before anyone made with the "What is my cousin, Geoff, who in no way identifies as a woman just walks into the women’s restroom claiming he feels girly that day, hmm? I don’t feel like I’m speaking the same language as folks in these parts. I should take a drinking break. ---
**Author:** ![RoniaBorkason](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9dc877/32.png) [@RoniaBorkason](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoniaBorkason)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/76 "2013-08-28T01:38:45Z")
I don’t do anything in the common area of a restroom that I would be uncomfortable doing in front of a (person who is sterotypically sexually attracted to het/ciswomen), and I would especially not have a problem with a (person who is stereotypically not attracted het/ciswomen) seeing me there. Maybe I’m going pee in the wrong kinds of places, but I’ve never felt a restroom be so sexually charged. To me, the rules are: 1 don’t look in the stalls, 2 do your thing and get out. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/77 "2013-08-28T01:43:41Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Edit: Black, I responding to a post you made before anyone made with the "What is my cousin, Geoff, who in no way identifies as a woman just walks into the women’s restroom claiming he feels girly that day, hmm? I don’t feel like I’m speaking the same language as folks in these parts. I should take a drinking break. Okay, I see where the confusion came from, because I said “if you look like a man”, but by that I didn’t mean things you can’t help like your body shape and other features, I meant if you’re not trying to look like a woman by dressing like a woman, etc. That’s why my sentence before that said I wouldn’t care if it was someone who identified as a woman and was trying to look like one. A man who just wanted to use the women’s room to get off is a TOTALLY different issue than a transwoman wanting to use the women’s room, of course. And I’m sure it almost never happens. But if it was a total free-for-all and you just got to pick whichever restroom you wanted regardless of your appearance with no repercussions, I bet it would happen more often. I’m sure there are more than a few men who would do it if they could get away with it. And they’d be exactly the ones you wouldn’t want in there. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/78 "2013-08-28T01:46:31Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Trans people have to deal with feeling misplaced and awkward like, 24/7. If seeing a penis on a woman standing next to me in a changing room makes me feel awkward for 5 minutes I can get the fuck over it. She would feel 100x more awkward with boobs in the men’s changing room, so I’d rather she changed with the rest of us girls. This. DAMN, I like you. I mean, sure, you answer the poll the right way, but I completely like the perspective you wrap around the answer, as well as how solidly automatic it sounds. I hope you never, ever get quiet. Signed, A Fan ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/79 "2013-08-28T01:59:05Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > Okay, I see where the confusion came from, because I said “if you look like a man”, but by that I didn’t mean things you can’t help like your body shape and other features, I meant if you’re not trying to look like a woman by dressing like a woman, etc. That’s why my sentence before that said I wouldn’t care if it was someone who identified as a woman and was trying to look like one. > > A man who just wanted to use the women’s room to get off is a TOTALLY different issue than a transwoman wanting to use the women’s room, of course. And I’m sure it almost never happens. But if it was a total free-for-all and you just got to pick whichever restroom you wanted regardless of your appearance with no repercussions, I bet it would happen more often. I’m sure there are more than a few men who would do it if they could get away with it. And they’d be exactly the ones you wouldn’t want in there. Okay, I’m on the trolley now. I was apparently confused (which is happening with increasing and alarming frequency these days). I think the first part of your post threw me off and made me think you were saying if you could tell the trans person was born biologically male, then they’re pervs who need to use the appropriate facilities, but all is clear now. On to that drinking break… ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327/80 "2013-08-28T02:02:09Z")
I’ve even dealt with an actual cis-man using the women’s bathroom at work. When you work in an eye clinic and have a large elderly population there, you’re going to now and then run into a guy with bad eyesight who desperately needs to go. (Considering how rapidly he banged open the door, ran into the stall next to mine, and started peeing, I decided to stay quiet and not interrupt him. I figured he obviously was nearly in distress judging by all that.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327.md?page=5)