# Cities w/o suburbs: Every metro area in America should have consolidated metro government **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395 "2013-08-05T14:59:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/81 "2013-08-07T00:35:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > This is not about making them move, it is about what entity of local government they will vote for and pay takes to. What if we don’t want local government? Why can’t we keep not having the local political hacks that don’t do anything but pass resolutions honoring the troops and encouraging recycling? Is “no local government” an option? Or must we all have it in your dominion? Or can we have the responsible ones we already have or must we submit to the ones that have proven that they don’t work? The proposal almost sounds like two neighbors. My neighbor works hard, keeps his yard nice and his house painted. I smoke hash all day and let my house go to hell. Wouldn’t it be better for our neighborhood as a whole if we pooled our resources? It would be for me and the neighborhood, but not for my industrious neighbor. This sounds an awful lot like something I can’t put my finger on. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/82 "2013-08-07T00:43:18Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > It’s removing a good part of why they chose to live there. Really? People choose to live or not live in a particular local government’s jurisdiction? School districts I can see, but not wanting to have mayor X over mayor Y? Around here, every October, there are stories about neighborhoods where people don’t even know what city they live in, so they don’t know what night to hand out candy. But… > [@Telemark](#): > > They choose to live in a community that isn’t part of a larger and more urban government. …maybe it’s because local government around here often isn’t organized around communities. It’s based on whichever city was looking to acquire when the developers were building your subdivision. People identify with their schools or mailing address more than their city, IME. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/83 "2013-08-07T00:47:53Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > I don’t know anybody who has chosen where to live based on local government. School districts, yes, but not wanting to have mayor X you’ve never heard of over mayor Y you’ve never heard of? School districts are a big part of local government. And local government isn’t just the people in office; it’s the community values and priorities. In small suburban towns like the one I grew up in we still had a town meeting, we knew the people in office, and most folks commuted to jobs in Boston or the major office parks just outside the city. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/84 "2013-08-07T01:45:22Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Is “no local government” an option? Nowhere in the United States that I know of. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/85 "2013-08-07T01:49:10Z")
The [Unorganized Borough of Alaska](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unorganized_Borough,_Alaska) is the closest to no local government in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/86 "2013-08-07T01:55:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The [Unorganized Borough of Alaska](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unorganized_Borough,_Alaska) is the closest to no local government in the United States. What about Detroit? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/87 "2013-08-07T01:55:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The [Unorganized Borough of Alaska](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unorganized_Borough,_Alaska) is the closest to no local government in the United States. But I daresay they can still call on some kind of law enforcement or rescue service if they need it, and if they can raise the appropriate agency on the shortwave. And, as the link states, the Unorganized Borough still has its municipal governments, tribal governments, and school districts. It simply lacks the borough- or county-level government the rest of Alaska has. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/88 "2013-08-07T02:06:52Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > The proposal almost sounds like two neighbors. My neighbor works hard, keeps his yard nice and his house painted. I smoke hash all day and let my house go to hell. Wouldn’t it be better for our neighborhood as a whole if we pooled our resources? > > It would be for me and the neighborhood, but not for my industrious neighbor. This sounds an awful lot like something I can’t put my finger on. **That** sounds an awful lot like [something I **can** put my finger on](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=696816), if I don’t mind getting it dirty. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/89 "2013-08-07T02:11:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **That** sounds an awful lot like [something I **can** put my finger on](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=696816), if I don’t mind getting it dirty. Or “Good fences make good neighbors.” Are you willing to admit that there are some benefits of local governments? But give us an example of a city and the suburbs that you want annexed? It’s hard to grasp exactly what you are suggesting without some concrete examples. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/90 "2013-08-07T02:24:08Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Or “Good fences make good neighbors.” Are you willing to admit that there are some benefits of local governments? Of course. The metro governments I propose **are** local governments. > [@Telemark](#): > > But give us an example of a city and the suburbs that you want annexed? It’s hard to grasp exactly what you are suggesting without some concrete examples. Well, I live in Tampa, in the [Tampa Bay Area](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa-St._Petersburg-Clearwater,_FL_Metropolitan_Statistical_Area#Metropolitan_Statistical_Area) (18th-largest metro area in the U.S. by population). Just to begin with, Tampa so overwhelms Hillsborough County that their governments being separate appears nonsensical; Jacksonville-style consolidation is in order. Looking wider, you won’t **believe** how many municipalities we have in this area, especially [in Pinellas.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinellas_County,_Florida#Communities) But, I would not incorporate all of Hillsborough County in the new City of Tampa Bay, just the western two-thirds, which is all built-up and urban-or-suburban. Rural eastern Hillsborough and Plant City could beneficially be transferred to Polk County (the next county east) – Plant City is closer to Lakeland than Tampa anyway. Polk’s government can (continue to) deal with rural and small-town and small-city problems and needs. A consolidated City of Tampa Bay would include all the **contiguous urbanized and suburbanized areas.** That means western Hillsborough, all of Pinellas, the suburbanized western edge of Pasco County as far north as Hudson – and maybe Bradenton, maybe not. One city government that can deal with all the problems and needs of a contiguous complex of cities-and-their-suburbs and its people and economy. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/91 "2013-08-07T02:35:10Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Imagine that I’m an ordinary guy living in Brentwood, Tennessee, a suburb of Nashville. When I compare my suburb to the big city, I see that I pay lower taxes, my kids attend better schools, my roads are in better repair, my crime rate is lower, and my parks and libraries are in better condition. > > You tell me that I should want to merge the governments of Brentwood and Nashville so that I could vote for positive change in Nashville. But what’s in it for me? The idea that the merger would quickly raise Nashville to Brentwood’ s standard of living looks quite implausible. At best we could hope that the newly merged city would have taxes, schools, parks and so forth halfway between what the two cities currently have. For residents of Brentwood, that’s a pretty raw deal. > > Some may say that this is selfish thinking, and I’d agree. But in a democracy one usually expects folks to vote for “their own safety and happiness”, as the Declaration of Independence puts it. What **ITR champion** said. In addition, in many parts of the county, especially here in the Northeast, so-called “suburbs” may have as much (or even more) history as an independent entity as that of the metropolitan city. For example, here in Connecticut, while the City of Hartford was settled in 1637 and incorporated in 1784, its “suburbs” are equally old. Glastonbury was settled in 1636 and incorporated in 1693. Wethersfield was settled in 1632 and incorporated in 1822. Windsor was settled in 1633. On the other hand, the problems of a stagnating city trapped within its borders is exemplified by Hartford, which is a very poor city (30% of the residents living below the poverty line), while being surrounded by affluent towns in one of the wealthiest states in the country. Still, though, why would the surrounding affluent towns, with as much history as independent municipalities as Hartford itself, want to consolidate their governments with that of the city? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/92 "2013-08-07T02:56:33Z")
> [@robby](#): > > In addition, in many parts of the county, especially here in the Northeast, so-called “suburbs” may have as much (or even more) history as an independent entity as that of the metropolitan city. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/93 "2013-08-07T03:00:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course. The metro governments I propose **are** local governments. By that standard the State government is a local government. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/94 "2013-08-07T03:11:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So what? It is a counter to the idea that suburbs automatically mean something like housing subdivisions that only serve as bedroom communities for people who want the economic benefits of the city but don’t want to live there. That isn’t true in much of the Northeast and certainly not New England. In fact, many of the towns now considered suburbs have histories at least as long as their larger neighbors and I think, have the right to not be consumed by them them just because of historical circumstances or geography. Have you ever heard of Lexington and Concord, Massachusetts? That is where the Revolutionary War started and they are still independent and vibrant towns. What about Salem, Massachusetts? That is where the Puritans had the witch trials in the mid 1600’s. There are tons more like them and they are technically Boston suburbs today even though they have their own centers and history to maintain. There is no way a ‘regional government’ can accommodate the vastly differing needs of those communities with Boston proper. At best, you would end up with a bunch of hopeless compromise laws with dozens of subparts and exceptions. What is the point of that when they have been running just fine on their own for nearly 400 years? That is only one greater example of countless others spread across the country. Let me ask you. What is the point again? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/95 "2013-08-07T03:15:29Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > It is a counter to the idea that suburbs automatically mean something like housing subdivisions that only serve as bedroom communities for people who want the economic benefits of the city but don’t want to live there. That isn’t true in much of the Northeast and certainly not New England. In fact, many of the towns now considered suburbs have histories at least as long as their larger neighbors and I think, have the right to not be consumed by them them just because of historical circumstances or geography. Why? None of the the **medieval** -origin towns in [Greater London](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_London) had any right not to be absorbed by it. **Towns** do not have **rights.** ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/96 "2013-08-07T03:40:41Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > The idea that _Nashville_ is a corrupt, crime-infested shithole is just hilarious to me. How much more whitebread do you fucking want?? Holy shit! > > I mean, it’s _Nashville_! I visited Nashville once while en route to somewhere else and sort of randomly pulled off the freeway somewhere. The part of town I was in was 100% black as far as I could tell. It has always stuck with me that the popular image of Nashville around the country as a whitebread country and western mecca means that these inner-city residents are even more marginal and invisible (h/t Ralph Ellison) than your typical poor black population. At least Memphis has famous black musicians associated with it, but to be an African American from Nashville has no cultural referent for most people (yet I’m sure there is a local culture that we don’t perceive). Getting back to the main topic: I want to hear an answer from those who disagree with a metropolitan unified government. Do they really think these suburbs just happen to be in proximity to the city? Why should they be able to sit there and hoard all of their money for their more affluent population, while taking no responsibility for the poorer parts of the inner-city? What if the city did a reverse version of this? They said "okay, we’ve got the skyscraper district over here with big banks and corporations–we will keep that. Over here we’ve got the trendy part of town with luxury condos and we will keep that. Nice tax base. But this other part of town is mainly just the poorest, underemployed or unemployed people with seedy bars and check cashing joints and a low property tax base. We will just carve them out of our city, disincorporate them, and they can figure out for themselves how to police their streets and educate their children and provide services and infrastructure. Is that just fine and dandy? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/97 "2013-08-07T03:53:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? None of the the **medieval** -origin towns in [Greater London](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_London) had any right not to be absorbed by it. **Towns** do not have **rights.** Surely the people living in towns in modern day American have a right to determine for themselves whether they wish to be annexed by the nearby city? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/98 "2013-08-07T03:58:29Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Why should they be able to sit there and hoard all of their money for their more affluent population, while taking no responsibility for the poorer parts of the inner-city? Why should the city be able to annex the wealthy suburb without the consent of the people living there? > [@](#): > > We will just carve them out of our city, disincorporate them, and they can figure out for themselves how to police their streets and educate their children and provide services and infrastructure. Is that just fine and dandy? Your hypothetical is no analogous. But, hypothetically, I imagine the city could decide at some point to disincorporate for whatever reason. Detroit might want to consider doing it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/99 "2013-08-07T04:01:57Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Surely the people living in towns in modern day American have a right to determine for themselves whether they wish to be annexed by the nearby city? No good reason why they have that right suggests itself. Remember, the annexations/consolidations of Greater London were done entirely under modern conditions. Did any of the towns involved resist? Who cares? Like I said, **towns** do not have **rights,** that’s even sillier than **"states’** rights" (for you foreigners, that is a phrase unique to American politics, and one which has never in American history been associated with anything good). ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395/100 "2013-08-07T04:35:39Z")
It would be one thing if a consolidated government actually served the needs of the suburbs. Maybe it would, and maybe it wouldn’t. Met Council is anti-growth, anti-freeway and as absolutely loathed in the suburbs because they hate everything the suburbs stand for, so that’s why there was so much well-justified venom in the editorial, but Met council are political appointees, not elected officials. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-w-o-suburbs-every-metro-area-in-america-should-have-consolidated-metro-government/665395.md?page=6)