# Cities with both a subway and an elevated rail system **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 5, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472 "2013-10-05T23:19:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/41 "2013-10-06T20:45:09Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > The Glasgow Subway is totally underground. It’s less than seven miles long. True, though there is also a surface suburban rail network. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/42 "2013-10-06T23:33:13Z")
London has several different train systems: The Underground, which is only underground in central London. It extends far into the suburbs and towns surrounding London where runs overground, sometimes through countryside. The Overground, this is recent innovation created by reusing railway lines to create a service that links london suburbs together without going through the centre. The Docklands Light Railway, this is a proper overhead light railway that winds is way around the regenerated east London docklands areas. The National Rail network that is overground sometimes high up on embankments, sometimes in deep cuttings. This links the big central London rail stations to commuter towns and (with bigger faster trains) to big cities. Finally there is a modern tram system that runs through the south London suburbs. The reason for these systems is in part due to the fact that the geology of south London makes tunneling very expensive unless you go very deep and that costs go up dramatically. Another reason is the technology changes over the years and so does its economics. The underground has been around 150 years. For example there used to be an extensive electric tram system up until about 1950, diesel buses were cheaper and more flexible. The trams became viable again in south London in the 1980s. The overhead Docklands light railway was a cheap solution to getting some sort of public transport in place to encourage companies to reuse the redundant docks areas of the Port of London. Riverside docks and wharves became redundant as ships got larger and it accelerated when containerisation became common which required huge deepwater docks built nearer the sea. A tube line was built into the docklands financial district, but it is extremely deep and was one of the most expensive stations ever built in London. I am sure the same sort of cheap overhead solution happened in many big ports with lots of redundant land. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/43 "2013-10-07T00:58:49Z")
By the way, near my parents’ house in the suburb of Tokyo, there were two ground level commuter train lines, parallel to each other and about 3 miles apart. Both were major impediments to pedestrian and car traffic because the trains were so frequent. Over the past 5 years or so, one was converted into an elevated line (i.e. replaced by elevated tracks built directly above it). The other was replaced by a subway directly underneath it. I expect there is no simple reason for the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/44 "2013-10-07T01:28:07Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I would guess that most cities with a rail system have sections that are underground in high density parts of town and surface and elevated sections in outer parts of the network. Besides density, topography is another important factor. Here’s a great example: Manhattan is the highest-density part of New York City, and the vast majority of underground stations are indeed in the high-density neighborhoods. However, there is still one (and, I believe, ONLY one) station in Manhattan which is still above-ground, and that is the [125th Street Station](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/125th_Street_%28IRT_Broadway_%E2%80%93_Seventh_Avenue_Line%29) on the Seventh Avenue line (#1 Train). I presume that this anomaly is due to the fact that the neighborhood is in a valley, and it was not practical to move the station underground. [Click here](https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.82012,-73.955227&spn=0.001293,0.00284&t=m&layer=c&cbll=40.820081,-73.955255&panoid=dws-4bwIldIj6ggxsQwZNQ&cbp=12,183.03,,0,18.53&z=19) for the Google Streets view at 135th Street and Broadway. This is the northern end of the elevated portion, and you’re looking south at the relatively horizontal train tracks, and the southbound lanes of Broadway descending into the valley. (The northbound lanes are on the other side of the train tracks.) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/45 "2013-10-07T03:33:41Z")
Vancouver (BC, the _real_ Vancouver) - They built the Skytrain (take a guess!) which tunnels in the downtown. Then they built the Millennium line for the Olympics, which is underground until it crosses the river, then it is elevated for the airport branch and the rest of the line into Richmond. IIRC there’s a few spots on the Toronto subway where it is above ground level, like by the Yorkdale mall where it flies over the 401 expressway; and I think out to the far ends of the Bloor subway. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/46 "2013-10-07T03:44:32Z")
(missed the edit) That is to say, spots on the Toronto subway where it is higher than street level. Not many, and nothing that comes to mind where it actually is on an elevated bridge trackway. (Except over the Don Valley, but there it’s like that bridge in New York where the subway is under the roadway.) I haven’t travelled the Scarborough Light Rail in years, but it seems to me that part of the system was elevated in spots? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/47 "2013-10-07T04:47:26Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Bangkok has the Metro and the Skytrain, and they’re separate systems. In addition to that, the Airport Rail Link is a separate system of its own. Just popped in to mention that they intersect with each other at a few points. So while they are all separate systems, it’s possible to transfer one to the other at certain stations. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/48 "2013-10-07T04:53:09Z")
There’s also Singapore, although it’s one system that is below ground sometimes and above ground other times. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/49 "2013-10-07T04:58:36Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Come to think of it, I’m not sure if any of it is at ground level. There might be some ground level track from Oakland south to Fremont, in some of the less densely developed areas (at the time it was built, late 1960’s/early 1970’s). There, major crossings with automobile roads would be handled by having cars drive through an underpass or overpass. Now that I think of it (having been mostly away from the area for about 40 years) I don’t really recall if there is any ground-level track. From Castro Valley to Dublin is almost all at ground level, between the east and west bound part of 580. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/50 "2013-10-07T06:06:03Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > There’s also Singapore, although it’s one system that is below ground sometimes and above ground other times. The MRT (mass rapid transit) has both below and above ground lines, although all the new lines are now below ground. They also have the LRT (light rail transport) which is an elevated “feeder” system to take people from their houses to the MRT station ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/51 "2013-10-07T06:09:19Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > The MRT (mass rapid transit) has both below and above ground lines, although all the new lines are now below ground. > > They also have the LRT (light rail transport) which is an elevated “feeder” system to take people from their houses to the MRT station Been awhile since I was in Singapore. But we’ll be refamiliarizing ourselves with the place in a few months. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/52 "2013-10-07T07:20:34Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Been awhile since I was in Singapore. But we’ll be refamiliarizing ourselves with the place in a few months. Woot! There’s lots of new things to look at over the last 5-10 years or so… ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/53 "2013-10-07T08:37:13Z")
What’s the dress code in the casino on Sentosa Island? Loose and informal like Las Vegas? Or dressed to the nines like Kathmandu? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/54 "2013-10-07T09:47:36Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > What’s the dress code in the casino on Sentosa Island? Loose and informal like Las Vegas? Or dressed to the nines like Kathmandu? I’ve never been (I have to pay $100 to get in :mad:) - I think it’s smart-casual. Trousers, polo and a pair of shoes should do it. I think they ban “slippers” (flip flops / jandals / thongs) and shorts if I’m not wrong ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/55 "2013-10-07T15:42:43Z")
No problem. I would never wear a thong in public. I don’t think you would want to see that. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472/56 "2013-10-07T15:54:26Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > (missed the edit) > That is to say, spots on the Toronto subway where it is higher than street level. Not many, and nothing that comes to mind where it actually is on an elevated bridge trackway. (Except over the Don Valley, but there it’s like that bridge in New York where the subway is under the roadway.) I haven’t travelled the Scarborough Light Rail in years, but it seems to me that part of the system was elevated in spots? Yes, the RT is at-grade from Kennedy until after Ellesmere, then it dips under the rail track, and after that is on a bridge with elevated stations until McCowan. The new airport train will take the mainline until near the airport, then it’s on a 3.5km bridge to an elevated station at the airport. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cities-with-both-a-subway-and-an-elevated-rail-system/670472.md?page=2)