# Citing Catholic Rules, Doctor Turns Away Bleeding Woman With Dislodged IUD **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 28, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325 "2016-08-28T19:34:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/41 "2016-08-29T13:13:49Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > Religion and medicine need to be kept separate. It is not the 1400s. > > Additionally, any hospital that takes any federal funds at all should not get to impose its religious beliefs on its patients. So, you’re going to close down all the Catholic hospitals? Or I guess prevent them from accepting Medicare/Medicaid funding? I’m not defending the hospital in this particular case (and neither is the hospital itself), but, push comes to shove, if you force a Catholic hospital to choose between its ethics and closing, I’d put it 75% that it will close. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/42 "2016-08-29T13:14:06Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > [snip] … My insurance “covers” a trip to the emergency room, but the copayment is about a grand … [snip] Yeesh … last trip the the ER was $350 for some stitches … ten years ago … prices have gone up that much? Thanks for answering … > [@Folacin](#): > > [snip] … if you force a Catholic hospital to choose between its ethics and closing, I’d put it 75% that it will close. No way … hospitals are cash cows for the Church … these are Catholics remember … ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/43 "2016-08-29T13:23:52Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > Religion and medicine need to be kept separate. It is not the 1400s. > > Additionally, any hospital that takes any federal funds at all should not get to impose its religious beliefs on its patients. You realize that these are two different policies? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/44 "2016-08-29T14:37:16Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > You realize that these are two different policies? The word “additionally” _was_ used. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/45 "2016-08-29T15:04:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The correct “gloss” on the whole “moneychangers/temple” incident depends on perspective. One interpretation emphasizes the strict Jewish laws about sacrifice at the Temple and the correct performance of it, which does not include just buying something. This falls in line with the presumption that Jesus was _directly_ in the Hebrew tradition, as in “I am come to fulfill the Law”. > > Later theologians were at pains to de-emphasize the Jewishness, but never got very specific on what it was that the money-changers were doing, except to imply that it was related to associating Jews with handling money, usury, stuff like that. > > But I don’t think anyone has come up with a good explanation for withering that poor fig tree simply for not being ripe. Be like a programmer taking a hammer to his laptop because his code won’t run. Also relevant: Three gospels tell of [Jesus and the bleeding woman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_healing_the_bleeding_woman) By Jewish law she was “unclean”–and had been so for 12 years. Touching his garment healed her–and he was not offended when he heard her story. The hospital needs to educate anyone allowed to admit patients. But the idiotic doctor was not an “employee.” ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/46 "2016-08-29T16:26:33Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Well, the ACLU filed a complaint for gender discrimination, but that seems pretty specious. If she suffered any irreparable damage, she should have cause, but the article doesn’t specify. Gender discrimination? What, on the grounds that they would have removed the IUD had she been a man? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/47 "2016-08-29T16:33:56Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > rewire is an advocacy website, not a real cite. What would constitute a “real cite”? [Vatican.com](http://Vatican.com)? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/48 "2016-08-29T16:46:07Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Gender discrimination? What, on the grounds that they would have removed the IUD had she been a man? 🙂 Without looking up the original article, they posited that the hospital wouldn’t have turned away a man with vasectomy problems. However, I don’t think there’s any basis to their contention; just a wild accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/49 "2016-08-29T16:56:02Z")
Why couldn’t she go back to the doctor she got the IUD from? I didn’t see anything in the story about that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/50 "2016-08-29T17:50:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How do you account for Jesus making a whip out of rope and whipping the shit out of merchants and money changers? That seems a tad judge-y, yes? He didn’t have the benefit of counsel from modern lawyers who could advise him on restraint-of-trade liability issues. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/51 "2016-08-29T18:03:19Z")
Maybe had that advantage at the trial, he got a suspended sentence! Too soon? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/52 "2016-08-29T18:36:58Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Why couldn’t she go back to the doctor she got the IUD from? I didn’t see anything in the story about that. Nice catch … just something about this story that screams spin … I find it very hard to believe a Catholic hospital would refuse services to a woman miscarrying her baby, _refuse_ to try and save the pregnancy … that makes no sense at all … think of all the profit they’d make rigging her up with Mag Sulfate … ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/53 "2016-08-29T18:40:56Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Nice catch … just something about this story that screams spin … I find it very hard to believe a Catholic hospital would refuse services to a woman miscarrying her baby, _refuse_ to try and save the pregnancy … that makes no sense at all … think of all the profit they’d make rigging her up with Mag Sulfate … There’s nothing in the article to indicate she was pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/54 "2016-08-29T18:47:18Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Why couldn’t she go back to the doctor she got the IUD from? I didn’t see anything in the story about that. The OB that placed the IUD might not have been a surgeon capable of repairing the damage that was causing the the bleeding. And who knows - the OB may well have been retired/vacationing/out of office hours. People see different doctors all the time for normal reasons. > [@Folacin](#): > > So, you’re going to close down all the Catholic hospitals? Or I guess prevent them from accepting Medicare/Medicaid funding? > > I’m not defending the hospital in this particular case (and neither is the hospital itself), but, push comes to shove, if you force a Catholic hospital to choose between its ethics and closing, I’d put it 75% that it will close. Yes, it’s a huge problem that the Catholic Church is so involved in public hospitals. I would absolutely vote in favor of laws saying that Church-run hospitals can’t use their religious beliefs as an excuse for providing a full range of care, if they take public funds. I don’t really care how the Catholic Church responds to it. I don’t care if they sell off the hospitals or start hocking some Michaelangelos to pay for the hospitals without public funds (as if). It would be disaster in the short term, and of course, endless talking heads about Hillary hating on Christians, but unfortunately, it’s necessary to get religion out of our medical decisions. Hopefully, by the time those laws reach the Supreme Court, Hillary would have been able to seat a couple new Justices. (And honestly - it’s time to stop nominating Catholics to the Supreme Court, at least until the balance evens out some.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/55 "2016-08-29T20:27:51Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Nice catch … just something about this story that screams spin … I find it very hard to believe a Catholic hospital would refuse services to a woman miscarrying her baby, _refuse_ to try and save the pregnancy … that makes no sense at all … think of all the profit they’d make rigging her up with Mag Sulfate … Wanna bet? [Woman Denied Miscarriage Care at Catholic Hospital Fights Back](http://www.fitpregnancy.com/pregnancy/pregnancy-news/woman-denied-miscarriage-care-catholic-hospital-fights-back) [Lawsuits Target Catholic Hospitals For Refusing To Provide Emergency Miscarriage Management](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/catholic-hospitals-miscarriage-management_us_5759bf67e4b0e39a28aceea6) [There Are Nearly 550 Catholic Hospitals That Can Deny Women Emergency Reproductive Care](http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/05/catholic-hospitals-deny-emergency-reproductive-care-induce-miscarriage.html) [Miscarriage? Don’t Go to A Catholic Hospital](http://lnr.politicususa.com/miscarriage-dont-catholic-hospital-842/) [This Catholic Hospital Failed Women Who Were Suffering Miscarriages](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/02/michigan-catholic-hospital-endangered-women-suffering-miscarriages-because-abortion) [Abortion ban linked to dangerous miscarriages at Catholic hospital, report claims](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/18/michigan-catholic-hospital-women-miscarriage-abortion-mercy-health-partners) From the last link: > [@](#): > > One woman arrived at the hospital after seeing a fetal limb in her toilet. Staff dilated her, causing “a bulging bag of waters”, but refused her request to break her water and begin delivery, the report says. > > “The patient was forced to wait over eighteen hours, while dilated, to complete the miscarriage naturally, resulting in retention of the placenta (a leading cause of maternal hemorrhaging and death) and additional, and potentially unnecessary, surgical intervention to remove it,” the report says. Later, a test of the placenta was positive for infection. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/56 "2016-08-29T20:34:45Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > They are liable for not instructing their personnel appropriately on their own rules and regulations. Like any other company whose employee fucks up and specifically fucks up by claiming “company policy!”. That’s not a description of civil liability. Liability can generally come about in two ways: in tort and in contract. Contract law covers those situations in which two parties have a contractual agreement and one breaches that agreement. Violating the terms of the agreement generally gives rise to liability – we say, in effect, that the one who breached the terms of the contract is required to fix whatever damages arose from his breach. Tort law covers civil wrongs arising from negligent or intentional breaches of duty done by one party to another. Not every “employee fuck up” creates civil liability in tort, or in contract. This particular incident may, but as yet, I have not heard anyone identify what it might be. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/57 "2016-08-29T20:46:32Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Yes, it’s a huge problem that the Catholic Church is so involved in public hospitals. I would absolutely vote in favor of laws saying that Church-run hospitals can’t use their religious beliefs as an excuse for providing a full range of care, if they take public funds. You understand that such laws don’t exist now, though. And you understand that for such laws to be passed, both the House and Senate must approve them by majority vote, right? > [@](#): > > Hopefully, by the time those laws reach the Supreme Court, Hillary would have been able to seat a couple new Justices. (And honestly - it’s time to stop nominating Catholics to the Supreme Court, at least until the balance evens out some.) The limiting factor to such laws isn’t the Constitution. Congress can pass the law with a paragraph that says, “The RFRA doesn’t apply to this law.” In other words, it’s not the Supreme Court that’s your problem; it’s the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/58 "2016-08-29T20:51:41Z")
One possible theory is that the failure to provide urgent medical care violates the the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA), 42 U.S.C. § 1395dd. Assuming the statute applies to this facility (which is likely), it requires proof that the hospital failed to provide “for such further medical examination and such treatment as may be required to stabilize the medical condition.” They can also transfer the patient under some circumstances, but that appears not to have happened here. I think the key issue there would be whether the pain and bleeding were considered an emergency medical condition, which is defined in relevant part as "a medical condition manifesting itself by acute symptoms of sufficient severity (including severe pain) such that the absence of immediate medical attention could reasonably be expected to result in—(i) placing the health of the individual (or, with respect to a pregnant woman, the health of the woman or her unborn child) in serious jeopardy; (ii) serious impairment to bodily functions; or (iii) serious dysfunction of any bodily organ or part. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/59 "2016-08-29T20:56:40Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Wanna bet? > > [Woman Denied Miscarriage Care at Catholic Hospital Fights Back](http://www.fitpregnancy.com/pregnancy/pregnancy-news/woman-denied-miscarriage-care-catholic-hospital-fights-back) > > [Lawsuits Target Catholic Hospitals For Refusing To Provide Emergency Miscarriage Management](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/catholic-hospitals-miscarriage-management_us_5759bf67e4b0e39a28aceea6) From the opinion dismissing the suit (internal citations omitted): > [@](#): > > Plaintiff alleges that the standard of medical care required MHP to inform her of health risks associated with continuing her pregnancy and treatment options, including termination of pregnancy. Plaintiff says that MHP did not provide the standard of medical care because it is a Catholic hospital that adheres to Defendant USCCB’s Ethical and Religious Directives (“ERDs” or “Directives”). Plaintiff cites to several other instances in which MHP did not induce labor where pregnant women were diagnosed with preterm premature rupture of membrane because USCCB’s Directives prohibited MHP from inducing labor in those situations. > . > . > . > For the reasons stated above, the Court lacks jurisdiction over Defendant USCCB. Moreover, the Court shall not adjudicate the negligence claim against any Defendants because it would impermissibly intrude upon ecclesiastical matters. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325/60 "2016-08-29T20:59:19Z")
The heartless fuckwads had the law on their side. All is right with the world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citing-catholic-rules-doctor-turns-away-bleeding-woman-with-dislodged-iud/764325.md?page=4)