# Citizenship Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 6, 2000, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914 "2000-02-06T10:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Squee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@Squee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squee)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/1 "2000-02-06T10:07:00Z")
This may be very simplistic to most people, but I have no clue about the subject. I am an American citizen, and I have a Canadian girlfriend. I went to visit Toronto recently, and fell in love with the place. The people were kind, the city clean, and of course Julie was there. I would love to move there if I could. I currently live in Tahoe. For those who don’t know where that is, it is in the ‘bend’ of the California/Nevada border. I live on the California side, and yes, it snows here. ``` Julie, on the other hand, wants to live here in the US. Florida, to be exact. She is sick of the shitty Canadian winters (and who could blame her!). And her parents live there. ``` I guess my question is… what is the deal if we get married? Do we have a sort of dual citizenship, or must we choose one or the other? * * * The most rewarding part was when I got my money! -Dr. Nick Riviera ---
**Author:** ![Jorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@Jorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jorge)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/2 "2000-02-06T10:34:00Z")
If you search a bit on this site, there was a thread which covered alot of this - Beruang was the author, I think. Briefly: you get married, and she is eligible for permanent resident alien status, and can stay as a “green card” or eventually become a US citizen. The actual mechanics vary, that’s to say there are a couple of ways to go with the visa whether you marry, or she “emigrates”, first. Not too hard, just expect the usual bureaucratic procedures, although some might say indignities, such as police clearance, certificate of competency, etc… Probably relatively easy with a Canadian. Check out the INS website too. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/3 "2000-02-06T14:39:00Z")
Check out the INS website, fot information, as Jorge suggested. There is a form to fill out for the spouse of an American citizen. Actually you should talk to an immigration lawyer, because you can’t talk to anybody at the INS. No matter what happens, it won’t happen as fast as you’d like. Trust me on that, I’ve been waithing over 7 years for my green card. Granted, I did’t get married. As far as dual citizenship goes, both Canada and the US recognize dual citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Lucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucky)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/4 "2000-02-06T14:47:00Z")
I am presently engaged to a foriegner. We are in the 10th month of the application process for a fiance visa. We expect the process to take another 4 to 6 months before his visa is approved. After that, he can come here and we have 90 days in which to marry. If I go to his country and marry him, I then must return home without him and apply for a spousal visa. I have no experience with this process, but was told that it takes a year. The fiance visa process is supposed to only take a few months, so take that time frame with a grain of salt. However, my finace is a citizen of a Third World country. I imagine that there is much less scrutiny over a Canadian application, because the INS is not as concerned that one is using marriage as a way to escape poverty, repression, etc. And since no one can object before the fact, I’d like to take this opporunity to giggle with glee. On the 22nd of this month I’m going to visit my sweetie. It will be the first time I’ve seen him in 14 months. With any luck, his visa will be approved while I am there and I can bring him home—finally! Best of luck to you and your girlfriend. The process will take some time, but I don’t expect it to be the usual nightmare because of her Canadian citizenship. * * * “I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/5 "2000-02-06T16:01:00Z")
Squee, So, you want to come to Canada, notwithstanding the winter - welcome! A good starting point for information is the web-site for Citizenship and Immigration Canada, the federal department that runs the immigration system: [So you want to be a Canadian?](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigr/index2.html) [pray God I finally post a url correctly, without screwing up the screen] You have to apply for a visa from outside the country, but you would be in one of the preferred categories for immigration, since Canada’s immigration policies favour family re-unification: > [@](#): > > A key objective of Canada’s immigration policy is to help families reunite in Canada. Family class immigrants are people sponsored by a relative to come to Canada. To qualify as a member of the family class, you, the principal applicant, must be related to your sponsor (see Important Words to Know) in one of the following ways. > You can be the sponsor’s: > > - legally married spouse, 16 years of age or older > - fiancé(e) That said, you would still have to show that this is true love, not a marriage of convenience to come to Canada. (Given our winters, and your current residence in California, I think our officials may be easier to reassure on this point than the US officials who process your fiancée’s application to move to Florida.) I’m don’t think you would automatically acquire citzenship by marrying a Canadian, but I could be wrong - I don’t practise in this area. The usual rule is that you start by applying for status as a landed immigrant. A landed immigrant is short of full citizenship, but has the right to stay in the country indefinitely. After three years of landed status, you can apply for citizenship. Canada recognizess dual citizenship. * * * and the stars o’erhead were dancing heel to toe ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/6 "2000-02-06T16:17:00Z")
[hamster dance]woo-hoo! I don’t have to send manhatten another apologetic e-mail about screwing up a thread[/hamster dance] * * * and the stars o’erhead were dancing heel to toe ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/7 "2000-02-06T16:46:00Z")
Just to help put your question in perspective, each country has different naturalization laws. For example, for swiss citizens, when you got married, up until five years ago your spouse immediately gained swiss citizenship. Also you can live in the USA for many years without becoming a citizen. My mother lived in this country for 14 years and never became a citizen. This does mean, however, that no that she no longer lives in the country, she needs to get a tourist visa everytime she comes back. ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/8 "2000-02-06T17:01:00Z")
alt.visa.marriage-based newgroup has tons of messages & lawyers there that answer this kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Squee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@Squee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squee)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/9 "2000-02-07T06:58:00Z")
Thank you, everyone! I have done a bit of research in the area of immigration. I wanted to try to move there under a ‘student’ status, as I thought it might by my easiest way to secure a temporary visa that allowed me to work right away. Although I have not abandoned this idea, I wanted to hear some other ideas. ``` Does anyone know if I can use my old ICQ chat sessions to prove that this in not a marriage of convenience? I did save most of them, but would they prove that we are truly 'in love' in a court of law? ``` * * * The most rewarding part was when I got my money! -Dr. Nick Riviera ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/10 "2000-02-06T19:03:00Z")
Yes, you can hold dual citizenship. As part of her naturalization process she will be required to renounce her allegiance to Canada, but Canada won’t force her to give up her citizenship as a result. And same thing for you if you decide to become a Canadian citizen. Under most circumstances you would need to sponsor her for a visa to bring her into the US, but since she’s Canadian (i.e. visa exempt) I’m not sure what the rule would be. But you will have to sponsor her for permanent residence. As the spouse of a citizen, it shouldn’t take too long for her to get her green card - it depends on the backup at the local INS office, where I am it’s about a year or so - and she’ll be eligible for work authorization immediately. After three years of permanent residence she can apply for naturalization. This all assumes you’re willing to live at least half time in America, BTW. One word of caution, despite what others here have said, do NOT expect her to get easier treatment on account of being Canadian - the INS estimates Canada to be one of the top five sources of illegal immigrants to the US, and you probably will find your relationship scrutinized accordingly. It really isn’t too much to worry about as long as it really is a REAL marriage, but you should start building the paper trail now. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/11 "2000-02-06T19:35:00Z")
Three things: 1. Marriage to a US citizen does not automatically grant eligibility for permanent residency. It does, however, remove one from the immigrant visa quota queue. It also makes one ineligible for any type of non-immigrant visa as the presumption in law is that the family member intends to reside with the citizen family member. 2. Canadians, and certain other nationals, are exempt from application for short-term (usually 90 days) non-immigrant (“tourist”) visas provided they are not immediate family members of a US citizen. 3. Dual nationality. A US citizen who gains foreign nationality by marriage does not lose US citizenship and is thus a dual-national. However, if said US citizen becomes a naturalized citizen of another country, he forfeits US citizenship. Some countries (Israel, for one) deny their nationals the right of forfeiting that citizenship. Therefore, if an Israeli citizen becomes a naturalized US citizen, notwithstanding the renunciation of all other allegiances, Israel will still consider him an Israeli citizen. Some folks romanticize dual nationality, but in reality it is a very complex issue and normally is not a person’s choice but a demand placed on that person by governments. You can check the following for verification: Immigration and Naturalization Service United States State Department ( [http://www.state.gov](http://www.state.gov) ) Consulate of Israel in San Francisco ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/12 "2000-02-06T20:25:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Monty: > \*\*Three things: > > 1. Marriage to a US citizen does not automatically grant eligibility for permanent residency. It does, however, remove one from the immigrant visa quota queue.\*\* With the effective result of being eligible to apply for permanent residency. > [@](#): > > It also makes one ineligible for any type of non-immigrant visa as the presumption in law is that the family member intends to reside with the citizen family member. I would think you still could, if you wished, apply for an H or L visa, as these are recognized as “dual intent” visas - that is, although they are considered nonimmigrant visas, the INS allows you to pursue immigrant status while you hold them. > [@](#): > > 1. Canadians, and certain other nationals, are exempt from application for short-term (usually 90 days) non-immigrant (“tourist”) visas provided they are not immediate family members of a US citizen. Canadians are exempt from visas in general … including long term non-immigrant visas such as H and Ls. They do still have entry requirements, though, if they’re not coming in just for tourism. > [@](#): > > A US citizen who gains foreign nationality by marriage does not lose US citizenship and is thus a dual-national. However, if said US citizen becomes a naturalized citizen of another country, he forfeits US citizenship. The State Dept no longer has the authority to unilaterally revoke citizenship (barring unusual cases such as treason or high-level service to a foreign government). Following a series of Supreme Court rulings and a subsequent change in INS policy, the State Dept in 1990 issued a policy that naturalization in a foreign country is grounds to forfeit US citizenship “only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship.” It’s on their website somewhere, I’ll see if I can find it. ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/13 "2000-02-06T23:44:00Z")
Sometimes the INS comes around to see if you really are acting married. But usually they are too busy. Must be some hot Canadian chick. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/14 "2000-02-07T04:45:00Z")
Here’s info from the Master on renouncing citzenship, since it contains some information about dual citizenship: [Cecil on Renouncing Citizenship](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/970808.html) and here’s the TM masses chattering on same: [Comments](http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000339.html) * * * and the stars o’erhead were dancing heel to toe ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/15 "2000-02-07T05:48:00Z")
ruadh posted > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > Originally posted by Monty: > > 1. Marriage to a US citizen does not automatically grant eligibility for permanent residency. It does, however, remove one from the immigrant visa quota queue. > > * * * > > With the effective result of being eligible to apply for permanent residency. You’re not actually a paralegal, are you? (insert sarcasm emoticon of choice) Anyone can apply for permanent residency. Doesn’t mean it’ll be granted. Eligibility enters into the realm of if it’ll be granted. The issue I addressed was the assertion earlier in this thread that marriage to a US citizen automatically made one eligible for permanent residency. It ain’t automatic (although prior to 1910, IIRC, it did make one a citizen). Let me say that again in non-para-legal terms: IT IS NOT AUTOMATIC! One must still pass all the nifty background checks and health checks. Those last two are the reasons that there’s a huge difference between non-immigrant and immigrant visas. > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by Monty: A US citizen who gains foreign nationality by marriage does not lose US citizenship and is thus a dual-national. However, if said US citizen becomes a naturalized citizen of another country, he forfeits US citizenship. > > The State Dept no longer has the authority to unilaterally revoke citizenship (barring unusual cases such as treason or high-level service to a foreign government). Following a series of Supreme Court rulings and a subsequent change in INS policy, the State Dept in 1990 issued a policy that naturalization in a foreign country is grounds to forfeit US citizenship “only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship.” It’s on their website somewhere, I’ll see if I can find it. Granted I should’ve said “risks losing,” here’s the “real deal” from the State Department’s site at: [http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html](http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html) Which I quoste: > [@](#): > > Dual Nationality > The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy. Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth. > > A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship. > > Intent can be shown by the person’s statements or conduct. The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person’s allegiance. > > However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there. Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship. Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship. > > Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country’s embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad. Regarding your assertion that Canadians are completely visa exempt: Ha! One must apply for a Permanent Resident _ **Visa** _ to get a “Green Card” also correctly known as a Resident Alien Identity Card, also correctly known as a Visa. It is possible to apply for this sought after item within in the borders of the United States, but that’s a much-involved (extra forms, extra fees, fines and the like) issue since the United States, just like every other country on the planet, actually expects one to do what one said one intended to do on the visa application. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/16 "2000-02-07T06:20:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Monty: > **Anyone can apply for permanent residency. Doesn’t mean it’ll be granted. Eligibility enters into the realm of if it’ll be granted.** Monty, you’re confusing a couple of issues. It’s not true that ANYONE can apply for permanent residency - well, it is to the extent that anyone can fill in the forms and mail them in - but the application will be rejected **on the spot** if you do not meet the eligibility requirements - e.g., having a family member or employer to sponsor you, **and** either having a current priority date or being in a preference category that is not subject to priority dates (in other words, that is not subject to the quota queues you mentioned). Marrying a US citizen fulfills both these requirements and therefore makes you eligible to apply for permanent residence. No, it doesn’t make you automatically eligible for it to be granted, but that’s not the same thing. It’s the same way that you’re eligible to apply for the Diversity Visa lottery if you have a certain level of education and are from one of several particular countries. That doesn’t mean you’ll automatically get a visa, but it does mean you’re eligible to apply where others who don’t meet those requirements wouldn’t be. Do you understand the distinction I’m making? > [@](#): > > The issue I addressed was the assertion earlier in this thread that marriage to a US citizen automatically made one eligible for permanent residency. It ain’t automatic (although prior to 1910, IIRC, it did make one a citizen). Let me say that again in non-para-legal terms: IT IS NOT AUTOMATIC! One must still pass all the nifty background checks and health checks. Assuming you’re referring to Jorge’s post (the only one which even comes close to suggesting it’s automatic, and doesn’t even), he **did** note that police clearance and a couple other procedures would have to be gone through first. I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that anyone here is suggesting you marry a citizen and BANG! you’ve got a green card. > [@](#): > > Regarding your assertion that Canadians are completely visa exempt: Actually, I said they were exempt “in general,” which in the English I speak allows for some wiggle room. Immigrant visas are an exception to this policy, yes, just as they differ from nonimmigrant visas in a number of other respects. > [@](#): > > It is possible to apply for this sought after item within in the borders of the United States, but that’s a much-involved (extra forms, extra fees, fines and the like) issue since the United States, just like every other country on the planet, actually expects one to do what one said one intended to do on the visa application. There are pros and cons to both sides. The main disadvantage of applying from within the US nowadays is the INS backlog, but if not for that it would probably be about six of one, half dozen of the other. ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/17 "2000-02-07T16:11:00Z")
Or save us time, just get an immigration lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/18 "2000-02-07T17:16:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by adam yax: > **Actually you should talk to an immigration lawyer, because you can’t talk to anybody at the INS.** Adam- ahhh, The Gov. Everyone gets their own taste of it. Both of my kids are Permanent Aliens here. They are adopted, but not Naturalized yet. The INS people I have spoken to have been helpful, courteous, kind and thrifty. Seriously, the INS is looking out for the laws. They are MISERABLY swamped. My kids’ application sat for over a year before the first response. Who knows when they will actually BE Naturalized? All I know is that until then, I dare not leave the U.S. with them in tow. Good luck, and patience…patience… Cartooniverse * * * If you want to kiss the sky, you’d better learn how to kneel. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2000, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/19 "2000-02-08T06:12:00Z")
Squee, if you’re still with us, I have the Code of Federal Regulations here at work and this is what it has to say: 22 CFR 41.2: Waiver by Secretary of State and Attorney General of passport and/or visa requirements for certain categories of nonimmigants. Pursuant to the authority of the Secretary of State and the Attorney General…, the passport and/or visa requirements…are waived as specified below for the following categories of nonimmigrants: (a) Canadian nationals. A passport is not required except after a visit outside the Western Hemisphere. A visa is not required. … (k) Fiance(e) of a U.S. citizen. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a) through (h) of this section, a visa is required of an alien described in such paragraphs who is classified, or who seeks classification, under INA 101(a)(15)(K) [the fiance visa provision]. So fiance visas are another exception to the Canadian visa exemption. ---
**Author:** ![Squee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@Squee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squee)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2000, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914/20 "2000-02-08T06:25:00Z")
**Ruadh** , I’m still here. I appreciate all the research everyone is doing on my behalf. I feel like a lazy bastard for not doing all myself! I originally posted this question to get some responses from people who might have has some personal experience in this area. Realistically, I probably won’t get married for at least another year or two, but I want to get some facts about establishing a ‘paper trail’, etc. Thank you, all that have posted… I’ll keep reading, if everyone keeps writing. 🙂 * * * The most rewarding part was when I got my money! -Dr. Nick Riviera [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/6914.md?page=2)