# Citizenship question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 29, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382 "2016-11-29T15:54:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/21 "2016-11-29T17:30:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can we just talk about the questions raised in the OP? > [@Deeg](#): > > SCOTUS has ruled that [citizens of the United States may not be deprived of their citizenship involuntarily](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroyim_v._Rusk). DSYoungEsq provided that case cite in post #4. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/22 "2016-11-29T17:41:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can we just talk about the questions raised in the OP? > [@Deeg](#): > > SCOTUS has ruled that [citizens of the United States may not be deprived of their citizenship involuntarily](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroyim_v._Rusk). My post #20 was made under the assumption that you were asking, “Notwithstanding the current case law, what would happen?” I based this assumption on your “Can we just talk about the questions raised in the OP?” question posted subsequent to **DSYoungEsq** ’s post. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/23 "2016-11-29T17:44:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My post #20 was made under the assumption that you were asking, “Notwithstanding the current case law, what would happen?” I based this assumption on your “Can we just talk about the questions raised in the OP?” question posted subsequent to **DSYoungEsq** ’s post. I was asking people to stop the digs concerning Clinton and Trump, and to stick to the subject. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/24 "2016-11-29T18:05:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It depends. If the person in question had claim to the citizenship of another country, they would retain that citizenship and presumably be deported there. If they did not, then they’d be stateless, a condition in which a person has no citizenship. Presumably they could be deported to any place willing to take them. IIRC, with some combatants in the War On Terror, the USA was having trouble finding cooperative countries to take them back. (Imagine that) Particularly, a person who was captured in Afghanistan may not have the documentation to prove what country they were a citizen of, and records were spotty. The USA I think found some cooperative latin American countries they could lean on to get rid of these guys. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/25 "2016-11-29T18:50:50Z")
There is also a twist to the question: losing one’s citizenship would _not necessarily_ mean deportation. It could just be the revocation of the rights of a citizen. There are plenty of resident aliens in this country. I can imagine that a government that could strip someone of citizenship could easily give them documentation of that fact in the form of a green card. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/26 "2016-11-29T19:04:10Z")
**Moderator Note** Since this is currently in GQ, let’s all stick to the factual aspects of the topic and take all of the political jabs to a more appropriate forum. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/27 "2016-11-29T19:25:22Z")
Sorry, **Czarcasm** and **engineer\_comp\_geek** - I was posting from my phone and thought I was in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/28 "2016-11-29T19:46:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This morning Donald Trump tweeted "“Nobody should be allowed to burn the American flag — if they do, there must be consequences — perhaps loss of citizenship or year in jail!”. Leaving aside all opinions about the man, my questions is this: If a natural citizen born in the United States has her/his citizenship revoked, what country(if any) are they then a citizen of, and where would they be deported to? Good grief. Hillary said the same thing per other posts! I think the GQ aspect of it has been handled by people smarter than I (me?), but neither Hillary nor Donald seems to be aware that this just will not fly - the Supreme Court ruled on that very topic [not that long ago.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._Johnson) etaL Not trying to bring politics into this, just noting that there’s a factual error in the very premise of the sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/29 "2016-11-29T19:53:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When it comes to Natural Citizens, **Loss of Nationality Must Be by Voluntary Act With Specific Intent**. Yes, that’s how it is NOW. What’s to say that can’t be changed in the future? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/30 "2016-11-29T20:05:22Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yes, that’s how it is NOW. What’s to say that can’t be changed in the future? I think that’s a question for another time, if SCOTUS ever reverses their decision. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/31 "2016-11-29T20:07:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think that’s a question for another time, if SCOTUS ever reverses their decision. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/32 "2016-11-29T20:08:22Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > IIRC, with some combatants in the War On Terror, the USA was having trouble finding cooperative countries to take them back. (Imagine that) Particularly, a person who was captured in Afghanistan may not have the documentation to prove what country they were a citizen of, and records were spotty. The USA I think found some cooperative latin American countries they could lean on to get rid of these guys. Any cites on what happens in these cases? I’m not arguing, I’d genuinely like to know. As far as involuntarily losing citizenship when it was gained by fraudulent means - from the link: > [@nolo](#): > > or to have been involved (at any time before naturalization, or within five years after naturalization) with the Nazi party, the Communist party, or a terrorist organization, may be denaturalized. In such cases, denaturalization occurs by suit or criminal proceeding in federal court. I remember a few years back, a huge legal battle over a fellow who’d been a low-ranking guard at a Nazi concentration camp. This would seem to apply. What’s interesting though is that I, as a US-born citizen (i.e. not naturalized, so there was no fraud involved) would seem to be perfectly able to join the Nazis, the Communists or a terrorist organization. It’s not clear what they mean by joining the Communist party, and I presume the reference to Nazis is specifically referencing the ones in charge in Germany in the 1940s, versus any neo-Nazi groups, but I could be wrong. Now, the first one is beyond loathsome, Communism doesn’t thrill me either (and is perfectly legal if potentially career-limiting), and joining a terrorist organization could certainly land me in jail (presumably for conspiracy to do bad things)… but unless they fall under the heading of treason, I’d still be a citizen. The Nolo article doesn’t say what happens if a US citizen, still in the US, has this happen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/33 "2016-11-29T20:10:40Z")
Please note that my OP concerns Natural Citizens born in this country only, not “naturalized” or any variation thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/34 "2016-11-29T20:15:10Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Without a radical restructuring of the government, to the point that the republic would cease to exist, a natural-born or naturalized citizen **cannot** lose said citizenship involuntarily. Therefore the OP’s question is meaningless, at least in the context presented. Not a radical restructuring. It would just need either a new amendment or a line added to the 14th. That would barely change anything except for a few under very specific circumstances. > [@md2000](#): > > I suppose then the law could be changed to define burning a flag as a voluntary act that indicates the intent to revoke citizenship. Somehow, I don’t think that would fly past SCOTUS. No that would not fly. If it were an amendment then it is in the constitution therefore constitutional. Personally I think it’s a stupid idea but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be done. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/35 "2016-11-29T20:19:03Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Any cites on what happens in these cases? I’m not arguing, I’d genuinely like to know. [The Uighurs](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/01/us/us-frees-last-of-uighur-detainees-from-guantanamo.html?_r=0) were probably the most documented case. Bottom line is we were able to get other countries to take them but it took a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/36 "2016-11-29T20:23:09Z")
Then _if_ that were to happen, what is the most likely outcome? Permanent greencard with no rights? A “temporary” stay in Gitmo? Relocation to a another country(and if so, which one)? ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/37 "2016-11-29T20:36:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then _if_ that were to happen, what is the most likely outcome? Permanent greencard with no rights? A “temporary” stay in Gitmo? Relocation to a another country(and if so, which one)? Good question. I am avoiding work, so have been googling like mad, and have found nothing. [Per this Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness), > [@](#): > > The United States, which is not a signatory to the 1954 Convention on the Status of Stateless Persons or the 1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, is one of a small number of countries that allow their citizens to renounce their citizenship even if they do not hold any other. The Foreign Affairs Manual instructs State Department employees to make it clear to Americans who will become stateless after renunciation that they may face extreme difficulties (including deportation back to the United States) following their renunciation, but to afford such persons their right to give up citizenship… UNHCR published a report on statelessness in the United States in 2012 in which it recommended the establishment of a determination procedure that incorporates a definition of statelessness in accordance with international law **to ensure that stateless persons are permitted to reside in the United States**.[97] Of course, this doesn’t say the US _adopted_ such a plan, just that the UN High Commission on Refugees recommended we do so. And of course, if you’re US-born, have renounced or lost citizenship per the various links, but are allowed to remain in the US, can you hold a job? have bank accounts? etc. etc. etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/38 "2016-11-30T01:10:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Loach** : > > Not a radical restructuring. It would just need either a new amendment or a line added to the 14th. That would barely change anything except for a few under very specific circumstances. The only way to add a line to the 14th would be a… wait for it… new amendment. And there’s no such thing as “just an amendment”: Amendments are a big deal. For comparison, it would also take “just an amendment” to make Bill the Cat dictator-for-life. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/39 "2016-11-30T01:19:59Z")
If flag-burning were a felony, then as a convicted felon, flag-burners would be barred from a number of jobs, owning property in some states, and most importantly, voting, so they would still be US residents, and citizens for purposes of taxation, and counting for congressional districts, but they’d lose a lot of rights. While they are in prison, they can’t collect social security. A flag-burning amendment could outline specific rights that flag-burners would be deprived of, like being allowed certain kinds of licenses over and above what a felon can’t get (teaching certificate, gun-carrying permit). I very much doubt it would fly, and Trump would learn he can’t act by fiat, and it would be about time. He seems to think that the president is either like a medieval king, or just plain magic. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382/40 "2016-11-30T02:50:34Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > If flag-burning were a felony, then as a convicted felon, flag-burners would be barred from a number of jobs, owning property in some states, and most importantly, voting, so they would still be US residents, and citizens for purposes of taxation, and counting for congressional districts, but they’d lose a lot of rights. While they are in prison, they can’t collect social security. A flag-burning amendment could outline specific rights that flag-burners would be deprived of, like being allowed certain kinds of licenses over and above what a felon can’t get (teaching certificate, gun-carrying permit). > > I very much doubt it would fly, and Trump would learn he can’t act by fiat, and it would be about time. He seems to think that the president is either like a medieval king, or just plain magic. It’s less clear cut than denial of citizenship, but _any_ proposed penalty for burning a piece of cloth has the hurdle of the 8th Amendment. I envision mass flag burning on the _I am Spartacus_ principle if something idiotic like this ever gained traction at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/citizenship-question/773382.md?page=3)