# City of Philadelphia vs. storekeepers with protective-glass barriers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020 "2017-12-22T01:51:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/1 "2017-12-22T01:51:52Z")
The city of Philadelphia may force certain storekeepers to remove protective-glass barriers in their stores, on the basis that such bullet-resistant glass is racially offensive by stereotyping customers as potential threats. [(Story link here)](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/crime/city-council-oks-bill-that-could-force-beer-deli-owners-to-remove-safety-windows-20171214.html) (Additional info: The vast majority of these shop owners are Chinese or Korean, and also according to the article and [this additional link](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/crime/beer-delis-plexiglass-windows-council-bill-20171130.html)here, one Asian man was shot to death by robbers at a convenience store, another man was shot six times during a robbery at a deli, another storekeeper was attacked by a customer who flung bleach at him (but the bleach was blocked by protective glass), another store faced a theft and there were other attempted crimes, etc.) IMHO, what the city is doing is essentially telling these storekeepers, “You need to make yourself vulnerable to robbery and violent attack.” Sure, the councilwoman who is pushing for this measure says that such stores could still protect themselves by installing cameras and hiring guards - but there’s a problem with that - cameras can watch for crime but won’t lift a physical finger to intervene and stop a crime in progress, while security guards cost a lot more money than bulletproof glass because their salary is a constant ongoing expense, whereas the protective glass is a fixed one-time expense - once it’s installed, it’s installed. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/2 "2017-12-22T02:01:47Z")
This councilwoman is the problem with poliricians. She’s more worried about people getting their feelings hurt than she is about thugs actually hurting people. I have a thought Mrs. Moron Councilwoman, how about you go and work a few weeks worth of night shifts in one if those stores. Then let’s see if you change your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/3 "2017-12-22T02:03:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The city of Philadelphia may force certain storekeepers to remove protective-glass barriers in their stores, on the basis that such bullet-resistant glass is racially offensive by stereotyping customers as potential threats. [(Story link here)](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/crime/city-council-oks-bill-that-could-force-beer-deli-owners-to-remove-safety-windows-20171214.html) “Customers” are a protected class now? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/4 "2017-12-22T02:20:49Z")
That is just crazy talk. ---
**Author:** ![Harrington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac8455/32.png) [@Harrington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harrington)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/5 "2017-12-22T02:30:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The city of Philadelphia may force certain storekeepers to remove protective-glass barriers in their stores, on the basis that such bullet-resistant glass is racially offensive by stereotyping customers as potential threats. > > Sure, the councilwoman who is pushing for this measure says that such stores could still protect themselves by installing cameras and hiring guards… How does protective-glass racially offend but not the presence of cameras and bodyguards? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/6 "2017-12-22T03:05:59Z")
From the Pennsylvania state constitution: > [@](#): > > All men are born equally free and independent, and have certain inherent and indefeasible rights, among which are those of enjoying and **defending life and liberty** , of acquiring, possessing and **protecting property** and reputation, and of pursuing their own happiness (my bold) That would put a wrinkle in he city’s plans, and surely invite litigation. [Volokh on the topic](http://reason.com/volokh/2017/12/20/right-to-install-bulletproof-glass): > [@](#): > > But I don’t see how that can be enough to justify preventing store owners from defending themselves and their employees. If you can kill an animal to protect your property, surely you should be able to have a passive, physically harmless barrier to protect your bodily safety. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/7 "2017-12-22T03:12:24Z")
> [@Harrington](#): > > How does protective-glass racially offend but not the presence of cameras and bodyguards? That’s what I wondered, too. Here’s a quote from the [second article](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/crime/beer-delis-plexiglass-windows-council-bill-20171130.html): > [@](#): > > Yale sociology professor Elijah Anderson, who has written extensively on Philadelphia’s urban environment said the barrier window sets up “a symbol of distrust” in neighborhoods where many African Americans live. > > “Of course some people are bad, but most people who come to that window are good, and they’re not trusted either. That angers, alienates them,” said Anderson, who previously taught at the University of Pennsylvania. “They know they’re civil, honest people. They’re hit with this symbol of distrust and it works on your psyche in subtle ways. You know that you’re devalued as a customer.” If those barrier are a symbol of distrust, what do the metal detectors and body scanners at every single U.S. airport represent? Does it create alienation in air travelers who are good, but apparently can’t be trusted to not bring bombs and other contraband onto aircraft? What about the metal doors that are put up outside of businesses to secure them? Or security bars on windows of residences? Don’t these things alienate members of a community because they represent distrust of one’s neighbors? Living in a high crime area doesn’t work on your psyche but these crime prevention tools do? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/8 "2017-12-22T03:15:39Z")
Just to be clear, the final bill removed the ban, [as noted in this link](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/crime/city-council-oks-bill-that-could-force-beer-deli-owners-to-remove-safety-windows-20171214.html) within the cite linked to in the OP: > [@](#): > > After hearing 22 witnesses testify — most in favor of the bill — the seven-member Committee on Public Health and Human Services, chaired by Bass, passed an amended version. The bill now instructs the city’s Department of Licenses and Inspections to “promulgate regulations to provide for the use or removal of any physical barrier” in places that serve food and alcohol by no later than Jan. 1, 2021. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/9 "2017-12-22T06:58:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The city of Philadelphia may force certain storekeepers to remove protective-glass barriers in their stores, on the basis that such bullet-resistant glass is racially offensive by stereotyping customers as potential threats. [(Story link here)](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/crime/city-council-oks-bill-that-could-force-beer-deli-owners-to-remove-safety-windows-20171214.html) > > (Additional info: The vast majority of these shop owners are Chinese or Korean, and also according to the article and [this additional link](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/crime/beer-delis-plexiglass-windows-council-bill-20171130.html)here, one Asian man was shot to death by robbers at a convenience store, another man was shot six times during a robbery at a deli, another storekeeper was attacked by a customer who flung bleach at him (but the bleach was blocked by protective glass), another store faced a theft and there were other attempted crimes, etc.) > > IMHO, what the city is doing is essentially telling these storekeepers, “You need to make yourself vulnerable to robbery and violent attack.” Sure, the councilwoman who is pushing for this measure says that such stores could still protect themselves by installing cameras and hiring guards - but there’s a problem with that - cameras can watch for crime but won’t lift a physical finger to intervene and stop a crime in progress, while security guards cost a lot more money than bulletproof glass because their salary is a constant ongoing expense, whereas the protective glass is a fixed one-time expense - once it’s installed, it’s installed. If I read the article correctly, they are targeting just one particular type of shop which they want to get rid of anyway because they don’t think they are good for the neighborhood. So reading between the lines, the city council is hoping the shopkeepers will give up if it becomes too unsafe. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/10 "2017-12-22T07:02:16Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > If I read the article correctly, they are targeting just one particular type of shop which they want to get rid of anyway because they don’t think they are good for the neighborhood. > > So reading between the lines, the city council is hoping the shopkeepers will give up if it becomes too unsafe. What’s a “beer deli” anyway? From the one picture I saw, it looks like a convenience store or “package store”. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/11 "2017-12-22T10:27:28Z")
Such strange rules about seats in a store. I guess they are the remnants of the anti-alcohol prohibition laws. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/12 "2017-12-22T13:38:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, the final bill removed the ban, [as noted in this link](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/crime/city-council-oks-bill-that-could-force-beer-deli-owners-to-remove-safety-windows-20171214.html) within the cite linked to in the OP: The amended bill leaves enforcement of unspecified new regulations up to city inspectors. Meantime, the state could [pre-empt](http://reason.com/blog/2017/12/15/philly-votes-to-regulate-bulletproof-gla) any city regulation. _“A bill in the state legislature would counteract the city ordinance: State Rep. Todd Stevens (R–Montgomery County) is pushing legislation that would prohibit municipalities from making certain “workplace safety” decisions.”_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/13 "2017-12-22T15:21:44Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > What’s a “beer deli” anyway? From the one picture I saw, it looks like a convenience store or “package store”. I wonder if they’re like those crazy Pizza/Daiquiri places in New Orleans. They’re on pretty much ever corner, and sell pizza by the slice and they have these slurppy-type machines with different flavored daiquiris you can get. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ecks)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/14 "2017-12-22T15:35:50Z")
From what I understand, the bulletproof partition bit is just a symptom. The real target is the places that are low end bars serving beer and shots and pretending to be restaurants. Obviously such places are mostly in poor neighborhoods and a source of and target for bad behavior. The whole bulletproof barriers are racist thing is a gross simplification. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/15 "2017-12-22T17:43:37Z")
> [@Harrington](#): > > How does protective-glass racially offend but not the presence of cameras and bodyguards? They would hire guards who are black, thus free of racial biases and incapable of microagressions. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/16 "2017-12-22T17:47:48Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > What’s a “beer deli” anyway? From the one picture I saw, it looks like a convenience store or “package store”. Although they have been loosened recently, Pennsylvania has had really restrictive alcohol-sales laws. Generally, I think beer for offsite consumption could only be sold in large quantities in specialized beer-distributor stores. Some sort of workaround to a loophole in the beer-sales laws has arisen in recent years involving grocery stores that have a table or two supposedly for serving meals on-site. I’m not exactly sure what a beer deli is, but my guess is that it’s a convenience store that similarly feints toward being a restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/17 "2017-12-22T18:35:09Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > They would hire guards who are black… And the city might be okay with that, but I don’t it’ll past muster with the EEOC. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/18 "2017-12-22T18:38:33Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ecks](#): > > From what I understand, the bulletproof partition bit is just a symptom. The real target is the places that are low end bars serving beer and shots and pretending to be restaurants. Obviously such places are mostly in poor neighborhoods and a source of and target for bad behavior. The whole bulletproof barriers are racist thing is a gross simplification. Presumably, an easier fix would be to address the licensing of these establishments as opposed to taking the stand that the owners of these establishments not be allowed to implement effective security measures. But would that be something the city can do or does it have to go through the state? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/19 "2017-12-22T18:44:31Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Although they have been loosened recently, Pennsylvania has had really restrictive alcohol-sales laws. Generally, I think beer for offsite consumption could only be sold in large quantities in specialized beer-distributor stores. Some sort of workaround to a loophole in the beer-sales laws has arisen in recent years involving grocery stores that have a table or two supposedly for serving meals on-site. I’m not exactly sure what a beer deli is, but my guess is that it’s a convenience store that similarly feints toward being a restaurant. Pushed heavily by Sheetz, who wanted to sell alcohol in their gas stations due to their pre-existing freshly-prepared food sales. The first one, I think, where they managed to get approved for sales is a large location in Altoona. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020/20 "2017-12-22T23:20:20Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > If I read the article correctly, they are targeting just one particular type of shop which they want to get rid of anyway because they don’t think they are good for the neighborhood. > > So reading between the lines, the city council is hoping the shopkeepers will give up if it becomes too unsafe. That’s what I’m seeing. This isn’t really a racial issue. The City Council is trying to shut down a type of business that it doesn’t like. But they’ve chosen a really bad way to go about it. Instead of just enacting laws to shut down the “beer delis” they’re apparently driving to drive them out of business indirectly by increasing the danger the employees in these businesses face. The usual snowflakes are missing the actual story and making their complaints about how terrible it is that other people are snowflakes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/city-of-philadelphia-vs-storekeepers-with-protective-glass-barriers/805020.md?page=2)