# Civic solutions in US vs "homogenous" nations **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 25, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800 "2015-05-25T15:53:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/41 "2015-05-26T16:19:08Z")
A significant portion of the opposition to an expansive welfare state in the U.S. is racial/xenophobic. People are worried about the wrong sorts taking their money. When politicians complain about moochers and takers and welfare queens they’re not talking about Mary Joe and Luanne down in the trailer park. In Europe, it seems the rise of right white/white nationalist party coincides with rising levels of immigration. I’m not that familiar with their party planks, but they mostly want to throw the immigrants out and close the borders, right? Maybe at some point they’ll want to dismantle the welfare system too. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/42 "2015-05-26T16:46:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But even in unitary States, the powers are divided between the President/ministerial cabinet ; the legislative branch & senate ; and the judicial. All of which can be from the same party, or from opposite parties, or from coalitions. Which was my point=, as well as what **Northern Piper** was talking about. > > . Power is divided in nearly every country on Earth, either \*de jure \*or _de facto_. Politics is side effect of civilisation. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/43 "2015-05-26T16:59:23Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Population A is ten million people from generations of the same ancestry, same history, same political pressures, same culture. They all speak the same language. Their familial indexes are through the roof - everyone is related to everyone else within a few dozen generations. Their world is what all their voters or other decision makers have made from generations of consistent, shared mindset and goals. ETA: Their nation is likely small enough that there is little variation in how their lives play out, in good times and bad. > > Population B is ten million people from more than a dozen nations, from first-gen immigrants to tenth-generation ‘founders.’ Not only do they come from hundreds of different cultures over time, speak dozens of different languages, came to adulthood under the spectrum of political possibilities, but - here’s the icing - thye all live under the rubric of Individualism Trumps All. ETA: And they probably sprawl all over a wide nation that is effectively a different one every few hundred miles, with utterly different epochs. Underline mine. That may have more to do with the issue of “why can’t the US do it that waaaaaaay!” than everything else (how are Australia or Canada doing lately?). If the attitude isn’t just “me and my family first” (that would be China, I understand) but “me, myself and I” well, that’s good for those who have the rest of what it takes to make CEO of a big firm, not so good for everybody else. And on issues such as sex ed, it’s worse: for some reason, that’s one of the subjects where the attitude of the nastier Americans involved switches from “me, myself and I” to “the rest of you have to live the way I say, even though you’re all going to Hell anyway”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/44 "2015-05-26T21:32:16Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But even in unitary States, the powers are divided between the President/ministerial cabinet ; the legislative branch & senate ; and the judicial. All of which can be from the same party, or from opposite parties, or from coalitions. Which was my point=, as well as what **Northern Piper** was talking about. That’s not how it works in a Westminster parliamentary system, either monarchical or republican. - the monarch/president is generally apolitical; - the Cabinet and the majority in the lower House are the same party; - the upper house (if there is one) normally defers to the Cabinet/lower house. Net result is that political power is centralised in the Cabinet and the lower house, with the government able to get its legislative program enacted. > [@](#): > > Well, I can’t speak for Britain much, but here in France the executive, the legislative and the local governments are elected on asynchronous schedules, specifically to avoid one group or coalition controlling all of them at the same time. > > And what typically happens is that, because government’s approval rating starts steadily ticking down immediately after election day :), they’ll often have to deal with a hostile chamber and/or hostile mayors halfway through their mandate. In the British and Canadian models, there are no elections for the executive and the upper house. The elections are for the lower house. The party which wins the majority (or plurality) of seats forms the executive. Municipal elections aren’t normally a factor. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/45 "2015-05-27T12:01:53Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > - > > Saying “all Americans” is almost a self-canceling phrase, whereas saying “all Japanese” or “all Norwegians” or “all \_\_\_\_\_\_” (fill in quite a few other such nations and populations) actually means something. > . You opened the question. So what percentage of a county’s population can still be “non-country” for it to still be a “homogenous” country? (I use “country” to mean “of this country” because that’s the way you use the term “American” in your example. If you don’t like it well, you started it). AND, (no you don’t get away so easily…) What does “of this country” (e.g. “American”) mean? Please define this term so that it makes sense for any other country since you started this thread about different countries. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/46 "2015-05-27T14:36:23Z")
“All those guys look the same to me, so therefore they are all the same. Unlike us! We’re all individuals!” ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/47 "2015-05-27T15:51:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I kinda see where the OP is coming from, but I wouldn’t call China or Canada “homogenous”. Social programs are, I think, easier to implement in smaller, more homogenous countries than in larger herterogenous ones. And there are plenty of “good” countries in Europe that are arguably as diverse socially as the US. Several of them have been able to eke out a decent and comfortable way of life despite not having a single national language! Obvious examples are Finland, Switzerland, and Belgium. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/48 "2015-05-27T17:30:04Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > My problem is that it’s never put forth as a fleshed-out argument. It’s usually just lobbed into a conversation like a non-sequitur. I’m still waiting to hear from you why “homogeneity” would explain why Norway is able to produce a frank sex-ed video. Or what wealth has anything to do with it. That’s where I usually see it (not speaking specifically of **Amateur Barbarian** but in general). Someone will bring up the way firearms or education or sex ed or health care or whatever is handled in countries with much more favorable rates than the US and some handwave it away with “But those countries don’t count!” It’s never “Well, those countries are different but they’re doing better than us so let’s examine what they’re doing right and implement it and tweak it as needed” but just “Nope. Don’t count. So now let’s only talk about my ideas”. Those people aren’t seriously considering the effects of homogenous nations on policy, they just want THEIR answer and apparently all the other nations have cooties and we’d hate to admit that anyone else had a better answer than we in the United States do (“Yay, American Exceptionalism!”). That and the uncomfortable notion that maybe those godless socialists actually have the right idea about some things. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/49 "2015-05-27T17:49:29Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > And there are plenty of “good” countries in Europe that are arguably as diverse socially as the US. Several of them have been able to eke out a decent and comfortable way of life despite not having a single national language! Obvious examples are Finland, Switzerland, and Belgium. I’m still puzzled by what standard some American posters are using to define American diversity. To my mind, countries that have two or four official languages (Belgium and Switzerland, respectively), with no expectation that all citizens eventually should learn a single language, aren’t “arguably as” diverse as the United States; they are _more_ diverse. Can someone explain by what measurement some Americans appear to think the US is the most diverse country in the world? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/50 "2015-05-27T18:03:09Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > _(Splitting from sex ed video thread so as not to hijack)_ > > I really don’t know where to begin on a response, here. > > One of the average 'Murrican’s worst lazy habits is to assume that all countries are just like the US (maybe under a layer of superficial differences, like speaking French) and that a solution to a civic or cultural problem would or should work just as well on either side. The American Way works for everyone… except when we’re talking about Japanese education, or Scandanavian sense of morality, or Canada’s general ability to do the “American” thing better than we do it… and then it becomes a huffy, fraught cry of “Why can’t WE do it exactly that same way?” > > I don’t think most Americans can even begin to conceive of being a citizen of a country that is 90% or more, sometimes close to 100% ONE population in language, ancestry, history, religion and traditions. I don’t think most can grasp that when you have such a deeply homogenous population, you can do things that simply will not ever work in a more mixed population - even, say, modern Britain. You certainly can’t do them in a culture that prizes stubborn individuality and “our ways” above all else, even when those are illusions or utterly counterproductive ideas. > > Saying “all Americans” is almost a self-canceling phrase, whereas saying “all Japanese” or “all Norwegians” or “all \_\_\_\_\_\_” (fill in quite a few other such nations and populations) actually means something. > > Can we look at Norway, or Japan, or China, or even Canada, and find things to aspire to in the way of cultural improvement and civic… harmony? Certainly. Can we take one of their solutions and transplant it into our barren soil, a la the great Japanese Way of Business in the 1980s or any of several panicky educational reform systems? No. And to me, it really doesn’t take any great leap of genius to understand why. it’s little more than “the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.” Like how car snobs blather on about how much better European cars must be because Europe, yet they don’t realize that we already get the _nice_ European cars. The ones we don’t get are miserable, cheap, underpowered little shitboxes. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/51 "2015-05-27T18:10:44Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > To my mind, countries that have two or four official languages (Belgium and Switzerland, respectively), with no expectation that all citizens eventually should learn a single language, aren’t “arguably as” diverse as the United States; they are _more_ diverse. > > Can someone explain by what measurement some Americans appear to think the US is the most diverse country in the world? 😕 Having more than one widely-used language in the United States (that is, anything but English) clearly will not work here. Because we are soooooooooo diverse, everyone has to SPEAK-EE DA ENGLISH. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/52 "2015-05-27T18:15:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Which country will deal better? The one with a better government that has respect for the rule of law, civil society, equality for all, strong educational systems, and opportunities for people to advance their station in life. > > In other words, well-run countries aren’t set back by immigration or diversity. I’m glad I’m not the only one thinking this. The US needs to decide what we find important, and stick to those beliefs despite cries of “diversity” and “respect for culture” and so on. Long story short, if someone emigrates to America, s/he must accept that things will be done the American way. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/53 "2015-05-27T18:39:43Z")
Is that what Ravenman said? In any case, as an Anerican from birth, I reject the idea that a certain group of us thinks they get to decide what the “American Way” is for the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/54 "2015-05-27T21:33:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Is that what Ravenman said? > > In any case, as an Anerican from birth, I reject the idea that a certain group of us thinks they get to decide what the “American Way” is for the rest of us. I would say a minimum should reasonably be expected of all non-retarded immigrants to this country such as knowledge of the English language, basic hygiene and manners in this culture, and racial/religious tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/55 "2015-05-27T22:50:21Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I would say a minimum should reasonably be expected of all non-retarded immigrants to this country such as knowledge of the English language, basic hygiene and manners in this culture, and racial/religious tolerance. “Non-retarded?” Really? Who got to decide this? How were they appointed for this task? And how will it be enforced? And what are the punishments for its violation? If it’s not in the law, then it’s not a requirement. Period. I don’t see how any of these things should be different in the United States as compared to other places. Language is a matter of free expression. People should be free to choose what language they want to speak. But this isn’t actually a problem. There are pretty much zero people in the United States who want to _not_ speak English, because speaking English is an economic advantage. There’s no need for any rule, legal or non-legal to enforce it. Same with hygiene. Except to the extent that someone might become a public health risk, people who fail to meet basic hygiene standards will suffer economic harm. Again, no need for a rule. If there is a matter of risk to the public health—vaccination, sex education, hand washing by service employees, etc.—it should be mandated by law. Manners. What manners is one referring to? This is again a free expression issue. Racial/religious tolerance. Public accommodations, public services, and businesses or services open to the public should not discriminate on the basis of religion (skin color, language, sexual preference, etc.). Other than that, I don’t know what kind of tolerance you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/56 "2015-05-28T00:06:30Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > I’m glad I’m not the only one thinking this. > > The US needs to decide what we find important, and stick to those beliefs despite cries of “diversity” and “respect for culture” and so on. Long story short, if someone emigrates to America, s/he must accept that things will be done the American way. That is totally not what I said at all. I’m specifically rejecting that people ought to assimilate cultures for the good of the country. What I am saying is that if a country does a good job of treating all its citizens fairly, embracing democratic values where problems are solved efficiently instead of being used to divide people into “us vs them,” and respecting the differences between people, that country can get a hell of a lot accomplished. Compare a country with that kind of mindset to one where it is frequently thought that having more than one language commonly spoken is viewed as a problem that needs to be corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/57 "2015-05-28T00:29:32Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > I’m glad I’m not the only one thinking this. > > The US needs to decide what we find important, and stick to those beliefs despite cries of “diversity” and “respect for culture” and so on. Long story short, if someone emigrates to America, s/he must accept that things will be done the American way. But there _is_ no American way ! Isn’t it what y’alls been telling us ? Melting pot, rich patchwork of cultures, diversity what makes y’alls great, sum greater than the parts and so forth ? Give me your tired, your poor, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/58 "2015-05-28T00:45:44Z")
BTW, I’m only half-way sarcastic here. I do think the notion that America is better off specifically because it didn’t care who you were in the Old Country or even what the Old Country was is a valuable one. I mean, it was always bullshit and there were always nativists ranting about the latest wave of immigration and things ; but I do believe modern American society & culture _is_ richer and more vibrant for all the bits and bobs of other cultures that have aggregated & coalesced within it. It takes a special place to come up with deep-fried sauerkraut. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/59 "2015-05-28T00:56:09Z")
Or the Choco Taco! Who the heck would want a Choco Potato? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800/60 "2015-05-28T01:38:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But there _is_ no American way ! Isn’t it what y’alls been telling us ? Melting pot, rich patchwork of cultures, diversity what makes y’alls great, sum greater than the parts and so forth ? Give me your tired, your poor, etc… Just fyi, melting pot and patchwork/quilt/mosaic/salad bowl are two different views of cultural integration. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civic-solutions-in-us-vs-homogenous-nations/720800.md?page=4)