# Civics classes - rights and responsibilities. Do we teach this stuff anymore? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392 "2012-11-08T19:09:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/1 "2012-11-08T19:09:09Z")
In another thread, I snarked that the rise of the ME ME ME Libertarian movement (in that thread’s case, a poster claimed that he was enslaved by the Federal government because he was forced to pay income taxes) is at least partially the bitter fruit of the “fact” that we no longer teach old-school Civics classes. Now, I don’t really know if it’s true or not. Do schools still teach Civics? Do they still teach that, yes, your rights are systematically protected in this country by the Constitution and its Amendments, but at the same time, because we are a social construct - a society in which the resources of the many are used for the defense and benefit of the country, and in which each individual takes advantage of many things which are aggregate contributions of everyone else - you also have responsibilities. You must contribute. Yes, you will be taxed. This is entirely appropriate, and you should feel obligated to pay your fair share. I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s, and it seems to me that basic instruction on how to be a good citizen (formal instruction at the institutional level) was being phased out at the time. Am I wrong? Is it still alive and well? What are your experiences? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/2 "2012-11-08T19:27:45Z")
Well, my two American Government classes get a pretty good dose of it every day. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/3 "2012-11-08T19:28:57Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Well, my two American Government classes get a pretty good dose of it every day. Good! What age? ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/4 "2012-11-08T19:40:30Z")
I wonder how many people feel that “Civics” (which I assume is pretty much identical to “Political Science” - like Silenus, when I took it in high school in the late 1970s, it was called “American Government”) is one of those classes where “it really isn’t necessary in schools as you can ‘teach to the test’.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/5 "2012-11-08T19:55:01Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Yes, you will be taxed. This is entirely appropriate, and you should feel obligated to pay your fair share. It was taught when I was in high school (late 70s). Of course, what’s not taught – and is the subject of much debate – is just what a “fair share” is. I paid more taxes than you, but less than him. How shall we determine which of us paid a fair share? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/6 "2012-11-08T20:02:34Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Good! What age? High school seniors - 17/18. Teaching this subject during an election year is pretty easy, although most of them are now convinced I am a raving, socialist, gay-loving, immigrant-embracing, atheist pinko commie dope smoker. I deny that last part. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/7 "2012-11-08T20:06:30Z")
I had at least half a year of it somewhere between 2005 and 2007 in high school. Wasn’t called civics but that’s what it was. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/8 "2012-11-08T20:33:49Z")
At my high school (class of 2003) all three diploma tracks required one quarter of US Government and one quarter of Economics in our senior year. I don’t recall learning much about civics in those classes, beyond jury duty and being encouraged to vote (since we were 18 or nearly so). But we were already expected to have a decent handle on civics, since civics were taught to us by every social studies teacher from middle school onward. I never took an independent civics class in my life, though. ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/9 "2012-11-08T20:34:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course, what’s not taught – and is the subject of much debate – is just what a “fair share” is. I paid more taxes than you, but less than him. How shall we determine which of us paid a fair share? We may disagree and debate what fair is, but “how shall we determine” was indeed taught. In math class: By comparing what each pays to what each owes. Those who paid less than they owe did not pay their fair share. A more important question, of course is: how do we fairly determine the amounts each should pay? We were taught that too: by electing lawmakers in free and open elections, who pass tax laws in open legislature. To best approach “fairness” each of us must exercise the right/responsibility to be informed citizens and actually vote. While the nebulous ideal of “fair” will never be crisply defined nor practically/universally reached, generally this approach is considered fair (though far from perfect) and is has correction mechanisms built-in when imperfections are discovered. More on topic: I’m a Canadian; back in my day we didn’t have “civics class” by that name. In Social Studies and in History I learned the mechanics of our government (and somewhat of others) and how it got to be that way. Your OP focuses on schools, while your title uses the collective “we”. My kids learned in school pretty much what I was taught, and they (and I) also learned around the dinner table, the news, and other non-school discussions. I share your concern about raising an entitled generation that knows the word “right” but not “duty” or “responsibility” The schools must play their part - and that part should probably be improved. And so must we all play our parts - and likewise seek to improve. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/10 "2012-11-08T20:59:49Z")
My kids are getting it in 8th grade ‘social studies’ class. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/11 "2012-11-10T02:12:01Z")
I guess in your “civics” classes blind allegiance to current governmental policy is part of the curriculum. I can’t question the morality and efficiency of the income tax without having my status as a contributing member of society in question? You define community and good citizenship as “paying your fair share”? I thought it was about helping folks out when and how you can without the coercion of government. Guess I’m just old fashioned/selfish/idealistic/blah/blah/blah/racist. I guess you have to resort to demagoguery because you can’t defend your position. I’ll have to remember that next time I challenge your cast iron sensibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Wulabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Wulabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wulabo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/12 "2012-11-11T17:53:05Z")
Outdated. A contributing citizen hasn’t been measured by those definitions for decades. A good American buys what is advertised. Period. In fact, the very term citizen should be replaced by consumer, that’s all we’re seen as in Washington. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/13 "2012-11-11T18:04:45Z")
My kids seem to be getting it. They are 7th and 8th graders in liberal Minnesota. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/14 "2012-11-11T19:44:24Z")
In Texas, seniors get one semester of government and one of economics\*. Senior classes are actually the most insulated from “teach to the test” type pressures because the tests are all of kids 9-11. No one wants senior-level graduation exams because 1) you need to know who passed before graduation day/had the flu and 2) you want to give kids who don’t pass the first time enough time to take another shot. \*It’s worth mentioning that the course in Texas is actually named “Economics with Emphasis on the Free Enterprise System and Its Benefits”, which amuses me. Kids can take AP Macro or Microeconomics instead. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/15 "2012-11-11T20:50:44Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I guess in your “civics” classes blind allegiance to current governmental policy is part of the curriculum. I can’t question the morality and efficiency of the income tax without having my status as a contributing member of society in question? You define community and good citizenship as “paying your fair share”? I thought it was about helping folks out when and how you can without the coercion of government. Guess I’m just old fashioned/selfish/idealistic/blah/blah/blah/racist. Question it? Absolutely! Compare income taxes it to slavery? Not if you want to be taken seriously. The rest of your post would make a great scarecrow. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/16 "2012-11-11T22:39:01Z")
I had a semester each of civics, personal budgeting, health, and communication, at an ordinary public high school. In civics we learned about the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, its amendments, the branches of government, checks and balances, delegation of powers to states and localities, and a vague outline of the government’s revenues and expenses. We explicitly got some instruction on rights and responsibilities. We spent very little, if any, time on other systems. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/17 "2012-11-11T22:47:16Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Am I wrong? Is it still alive and well? What are your experiences? Of course you’re wrong! 😉 “Civics” (better known as “US Government/Economics”) is a graduation requirement for all high school students in New York state. You take it in your senior year and it builds on stuff you learned the year before, which is US History. Typically, “schools these days don’t teach X” will always still teach X. The failure of the modern education system is a myth as far as most middle class kids are concerned. I mean, do you honestly believe a good dose of “this is how our government works” has been erased from high school? That’s crazy talk! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/18 "2012-11-11T22:55:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **WillFarnaby** : > > I guess in your “civics” classes blind allegiance to current governmental policy is part of the curriculum. I can’t question the morality and efficiency of the income tax without having my status as a contributing member of society in question? Of course you can! And the way you do that is by voting for legislators who you think will pass tax policies more to your liking. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/19 "2012-11-12T02:40:36Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > Question it? Absolutely! Compare income taxes it to slavery? Not if you want to be taken seriously. > > The rest of your post would make a great scarecrow. The hell are you talking about, bud? I didn’t compare income tax to slavery in 19th century South Carolina, but it’s still slavery? As for the inane reference to straw man arguments, I addressed the op, so idk what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civics-classes-rights-and-responsibilities-do-we-teach-this-stuff-anymore/640392/20 "2012-11-12T03:11:10Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The hell are you talking about, bud? I didn’t compare income tax to slavery in 19th century South Carolina, but it’s still slavery? As for the inane reference to straw man arguments, I addressed the op, so idk what you’re talking about. You sure did. [From this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15677030#post15677030) > [@What lessons can be drawn from the 2012 election?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-lessons-can-be-drawn-from-the-2012-election/640306/9): > > Note to self: Do NOT say that it’s a “gift from God” when a raped woman becomes pregnant. > > OK, now that we’ve brought ourselves into the 18th century, we can start working our way into the 19th century. Lesson number one: Slavery is not good. Repeat after me: Slavery is not good. > [@What lessons can be drawn from the 2012 election?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-lessons-can-be-drawn-from-the-2012-election/640306/23): > > except of course, when you are enslaved by the federal government. > [@What lessons can be drawn from the 2012 election?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-lessons-can-be-drawn-from-the-2012-election/640306/26): > > As long as they tax my “income” I remain enslaved. I have no interest in changing my life so I can be ruled by a more fiscally responsible slave master.