# Civil Trial: Trump v E. Jean Carroll (Carroll wins, awarded $5 million, plus 83.3 million) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [April 17, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820 "2023-04-17T21:59:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/281 "2023-05-09T23:25:37Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > They found something had happened, but not what Carroll said. If they credited Carroll’s account that there was unwanted sexual contact in the first place, why not her account of what that contact was? I have a different speculation based on what I think might happen if a few people who think somewhat as I do were on the jury. We would be uncomfortable with ruling that what’s obviously a criminal offense occurred on the basis that he probably did it. No one, during deliberations, would question the judge’s instructions about this being a civil case without the no-reasonable-doubt requirement. But I think that a fair number of jurors do not want to say someone did something horrendous when we are only 80 or 90 percent sure. I can see being certain Carroll didn’t make up a story that DJT assaulted her. But without any physical evidence that the terrifying assault got to the point Carroll remembers in nightmares, we might be reluctant to say there was proof of rape. I know one objection to the above – sworn testimony from the friend, about a telephone call 23 years prior, saying it occurred minutes after the rape. How much certainty we have, that the call occurred the same day, may have been discussed in the jury room. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/282 "2023-05-09T23:29:56Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > I’m glad to be corrected here, but I don’t see a difference between using “issues” or “grounds” for an appeal It’s arguably a subtle distinction, but the word “issues” would generally be interpreted as being a negative – a problem – from the speaker’s point of view, as in “I have issues with the quality of your work”. If Tacopina feels that an appeal is justified, I would think that “grounds for” expresses it more clearly than “issues for/with”. > [@dougrb](#): > > > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > > > setting aside TFG mistaking her for Marla Maples > > I really hope they showed the “Person, woman, man, camera, TV” thing to emphasize his remarkable memory. I don’t think that was supposed to demonstrate his remarkable memory, I think it was supposed to demonstrate his remarkable brain power that clearly rises to the level of genius, according to his own assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/283 "2023-05-09T23:45:15Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I have a different speculation based on what I think might happen if a few people who think somewhat as I do were on the jury. I think it’s simpler than that. By her own testimony, she was unsure whether Trump penetrated her with his penis, which is what was necessary for the act legally defined as “rape”, under the laws in place at the time. Even with a “preponderance of the evidence” standard, it’s tough to find something that even the victim herself was unsure of. Though one would hope that the law at least treated other forms of nonconsensual sexual contact at a similar level of gravity, even if it used other words for those other acts. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/284 "2023-05-10T00:10:26Z")
The basis of the appeal, according to someone on television, are factors like the judge approving the watching of the pussy tape by the jury, which they considered inherently prejudicial. The judge also made a number of other decisions favorable to Carrol. You can be sure that Trump’s lawyers will compile all them into a list so long that it will stun and awe the MAGA crowd and make them doubt the entire structure of American jurisprudence. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/285 "2023-05-10T00:16:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think it’s simpler than that. By her own testimony, she was unsure whether Trump penetrated her with his penis, which is what was necessary for the act legally defined as “rape”, under the laws in place at the time. Even with a “preponderance of the evidence” standard, it’s tough to find something that even the victim herself was unsure of. Think how much that must piss Trump off. Ms. Carrol testified, and the jury believed, that she was unable to discern a difference between his finger and his penis. ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/286 "2023-05-10T00:17:20Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > which they considered inherently prejudicial. They have a point. Prejudicial Def: Causing or tending to cause harm, especially to a legal case. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/287 "2023-05-10T00:22:55Z")
Bringing up previous behavior is always controversial. Sometimes it provides a pattern of behavior and sometimes it inflames the jury. (Sometimes both.) Both sides probably knew at the moment the judge allowed it that it would be a basis for appeal if Trump lost. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/288 "2023-05-10T00:29:22Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > Think how much that must piss Trump off. Ms. Carrol testified, and the jury believed, that she was unable to discern a difference between his finger and his penis. Plus he has small hands… ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/289 "2023-05-10T00:29:43Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Bringing up previous behavior is always controversial. In timing, it was long after the assault. I don’t know if that matters. The appeal would be under Rule 404, presumably (or the NY State equivalent). [Rule 404. Character Evidence; Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts | Federal Rules of Evidence | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_404) Does what he said about grabbing pussy constitute a “character trait”, or is it a broad confession to numerous bad acts, perhaps including this one? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/290 "2023-05-10T00:32:42Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > the jury believed, that she was unable to discern a difference between his finger and his penis. His very small finger. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/291 "2023-05-10T00:34:36Z")
> [@dougrb](#): > > They have a point. > Prejudicial Def: Causing or tending to cause harm, especially to a legal case. I understand that there is a rule of Federal evidence that allows proof of prior bad acts/disposition in cases of sexual assaults, different from the normal rule. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/292 "2023-05-10T01:23:17Z")
Does anyone know if he has to post a bond for the damages as a condition of appeal? ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/293 "2023-05-10T01:27:39Z")
I was being facetious. Your Honor… This blood soaked gun with my clients fingerprints is “Causing or tending to cause harm, especially to my legal case.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/294 "2023-05-10T01:38:22Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > IANAL, but my understanding is that permission to appeal is required, which is sought by filing a **[motion for permission to appeal in a civil case](https://www.nycourts.gov/ctapps/500rules.htm#Civil)**. Which seems to me to imply that such permission may not be granted if they don’t have good reasons for it. They may not necessarily have them just because Tapioca Man says they do. Trump’s habit of abusing the legal system by dragging things out as long as possible is not likely endearing him to many judges. That’s the NY State Court of Appeals. This trial was in Federal Court, applying New York state law. So appeals go to the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals. I believe he would have a right of appeal to a three judge panel, with a further appeal by way of leave to the Circuit en banc. Following that, technically there could be a cert app to the Supreme Court, but they have to dredge up some sort of federal issue; maybe that special federal rule of evidence for sexual assault trials? > **[United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_of_Appeals_for_the_Second_Circuit)** > > The United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit (in case citations, 2d Cir.) is one of the thirteen United States Courts of Appeals. Appeals from the second circuit are heard by the Supreme Court of the United States. Its territory comprises the states of Connecticut, New York and Vermont. The court has appellate jurisdiction over the district courts in the following districts: > The Second Circuit has its clerk's office and judges hear oral arguments at the Thurgood Marshall United St... ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/295 "2023-05-10T04:03:08Z")
As I understand it, an appeal can’t be made on the basis that the verdict was unfavorable, the defendant needs to come up with some irregularity in the trial that prevented them from having an opportunity for a fair verdict. Is this correct? ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/296 "2023-05-10T04:11:10Z")
It seems to me Tacopina’s strategy is that the judge was a big ol’ meanie. That’s about it. Even on Fox News the legal analysts were saying there isn’t any obvious reason to think Trump will prevail on appeal. Yes, Fox News. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/297 "2023-05-10T04:14:07Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > That’s about it. Even on Fox News the legal analysts were saying there isn’t any obvious reason to think Trump will prevail on appeal. I’m not sure if that’s Trump’s plan here. It could be that he’s just trying to rile up his base and get them to donate more money. But that always seems to be his plan. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/298 "2023-05-10T04:19:12Z")
I understand your point but I truly think the fragile ego of DJT can’t abide that a jury found he is a disgusting sexual predator. Even his dimwitted brain understands the hit his self-imagined reputation will take. But absolutely no doubt he will use this to keep the simoleons rolling in from the rubes. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/299 "2023-05-10T11:34:41Z")
Anybody else curious what donald will be asked at his upcoming town hall? > **[CNN's town hall with Donald Trump takes on added stakes after verdict in...](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/10/1174959260/cnn-trump-town-hall)** > > CNN's transformation away from an anti-Trump lineup includes a live town hall featuring Donald Trump. That comes with its own challenges. Meanwhile…this is actually the _second_ defamation case that Carroll brought (since donald repeated his claims that he never met her and she wasn’t his type) - the first was stalled since he initially said the defamatory stuff _while_ he was president. There was a big kerfuffle over whether his words would be actionable since he said them as President. The appellate court has recently ruled: > [@](#): > > Under the law of the District of Columbia, and on the record before us, whether the President of the United States was acting within the scope of his employment is a question for the factfinder,” they wrote in a 52-page opinion. The fact finder is the jury. This is their way of sending it back to the trial court and letting a jury decide the issue at trial. And for clarification purposes > [@](#): > > The case at issue has been designated Carroll I in the court record. Meaning what we just saw was a verdict in **Carroll II** > **[E. Jean Carroll's defamation case against Trump is still alive after appeals...](https://lawandcrime.com/live-trials/e-jean-carroll-rape-suit/e-jean-carrolls-defamation-case-against-trump-is-still-alive-after-dc-appeals-court-punts-immunity-question/amp/)** > > E. Jean Carroll's defamation case against Donald Trump survived on Thursday, after a D.C.-based appeals court declined to resolve the question of his immunity. Oh, and who is the judge for Carol I? Why, it’s U.S. District Judge Lewis A. Kaplan, the same judge who just oversaw this verdict. We may not be done just yet. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/300 "2023-05-10T11:39:03Z")
I knew he was doing a CNN thing. But I didn’t realize it was a town hall. Is he actually going to take questions from citizens? That might be worth a look. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820.md?page=16)