# Civil Trial: Trump v E. Jean Carroll (Carroll wins, awarded $5 million, plus 83.3 million) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [April 17, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820 "2023-04-17T21:59:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2024, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/861 "2024-01-28T23:15:23Z")
Here’s a [**44pg PDF**](https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Master-Calendar-of-Trump-Court-Dates-Criminal-and-Civil-Cases-Jan.-5-2024.pdf) of the “Master Calendar of Trump Court Dates: Criminal and Civil Cases” for those interested in such things. ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/862 "2024-01-29T01:14:48Z")
This has been posted elsewhere but it seems to fit. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/4rvxxL9X8rI/maxresdefault.jpg "Donald Trump's Official Scheduler | The Daily Show") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rvxxL9X8rI) ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/863 "2024-01-29T04:10:39Z")
I did a spin-off from this thread, for further discussion of the -financial- consequences of these settlements along with the other possible/probably judgements against Trump in the hopefully not-too-distant future for those who want to speculate: > [@Trump, Personal and Business Financing in Light of Current and Future Judgements](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-personal-and-business-financing-in-light-of-current-and-future-judgements/996782): > > Continuing the discussion from [Civil Trial: Trump v E. Jean Carroll (Carroll wins, awarded $5 million, plus 83.3 million)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820): A thought that is specifically related to this judgement, but applies to Trump overall as well. We’re currently talking @ 88 million USD in liabilities from this Civil Trial. Previous reporting on Trump showed substantial debt and refinancing needs coming over 2024-2045, and of course more down the line. While interest rates aren’t going UP at the rate they were earlier,… ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/864 "2024-01-29T19:03:51Z")
Below is an excellent X/Twitter thread regarding Trump’s chances at appeal. Basically, he’s completely screwed because his lawyer is incompetent and an appeal because of incompetent council is only for criminal cases. [https://twitter.com/BrianManookian](https://twitter.com/BrianManookian) ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/865 "2024-01-29T19:09:48Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Below is an excellent X/Twitter thread regarding Trump’s chances at appeal. Basically, he’s completely screwed because his lawyer is incompetent and an appeal because of incompetent council is only for criminal cases. > > [https://twitter.com/BrianManookian](https://twitter.com/BrianManookian) Unless I’m doing it wrong, this just links to some guy’s Twitter page with nothing about the Trump v. Carroll case. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/866 "2024-01-29T19:14:21Z")
Try this for a summary: > **["Trump doesn't have an appeal": Experts say Trump may fire lawyer after being...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-doesnt-appeal-experts-trump-171304346.html)** > > Legal experts skewered Alina Habba's "comedy of bumbling errors" in Trump defamation trial. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/867 "2024-01-29T19:17:27Z")
Thanks! There’s also a link to the Twitter/X thread in the story: > And wow, it’s a pretty damning indictment of Ms. Habba’s lawyering skills (or lack thereof). ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/868 "2024-01-29T19:24:21Z")
Yes. Particularly since the only path forward for Trump is delay, delay, delay. And Habba destroyed his ability to appeal the verdict due to her incompetence. So any potential appeal is going to be dismissed very quickly. No delay for you today Trump! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/869 "2024-01-29T19:29:47Z")
Out of curiosity, what would a competent defense have looked like at this latest trial? That is, once it’s decided that he committed the act, how would a competent lawyer have minimized the judgment against him, or preserved the appeal? Assume the same client, so there’s no settlement on the table, and he’s gonna whine and bluster and act the fool. What would a good attorney have done, other than refuse the job? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/870 "2024-01-29T19:31:25Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Unless I’m doing it wrong, this just links to some guy’s Twitter page with nothing about the Trump v. Carroll case. The very first Tweet is about the case ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/871 "2024-01-29T19:41:01Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > > [@robby](#): > > > > Unless I’m doing it wrong, this just links to some guy’s Twitter page with nothing about the Trump v. Carroll case. > > The very first Tweet is about the case The first Tweet that is visible for me is from June 30, 2023 about a lawsuit the guy filed against a student loan servicer. If I scroll down, I don’t see anything more recent than that. Note that I don’t have a Twitter/X account (and don’t intend to sign up for one, either), so maybe that has something to do with it. So it may be that you have to link to the specific Tweet in question if you want everyone to be able to see it. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/872 "2024-01-29T19:47:06Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Thanks! There’s also a link to the Twitter/X thread in the story: > > [https://twitter.com/BrianManookian/status/1751024486495699067?s=20](https://twitter.com/BrianManookian/status/1751024486495699067?s=20) > > And wow, it’s a pretty damning indictment of Ms. Habba’s lawyering skills (or lack thereof). Besides explaining why Trump has no chance of appeal on procedural grounds, and that an “ineffective counsel” appeal doesn’t apply to civil cases, the same lawyer also explains why the argument that the award was excessive isn’t likely to fly, either (I bolded the best part): > The purpose of punitive damages is to deter and discourage the same conduct in the future. They are designed to protect the rest of society from the same type of conduct by the wrongdoer by teaching the wrongdoer that there will be real consequences. > > This is where “excessive award” does not simply mean “big number.” Punitive damages are calculated by looking at the wrongdoer’s net worth and deciding how much money is necessary to teach them a lesson. > > A $10k punitive damages award might be more than enough to chasten your average citizen. That’s a decent chunk of change. But it isn’t enough to deter, for example, a large corporation like Exxon or Boeing. Because of that, the jury is called upon to make a factual determination as to what amount is necessary to teach THIS PARTICULAR DEFENDANT a lesson. > > **This is why E. Jean’s lawyers did such a masterful job of using Trump’s own boasts about his wealth against him.** They created a factual record within the transcript that Trump has huge wealth, according to his own statements, and that to deter him, a commensurate punitive award was necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/873 "2024-01-29T19:49:56Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So any potential appeal is going to be dismissed very quickly. The chances on appeal are not good, but I don’t see that speeding up the process much. They still get to file appeal briefs (and ask for extensions). The plaintiff has to file their brief, and then they get a reply. Oral argument might be dispensed with if the Court of Appeals sees no significant issues, but I would guess even if they’re going to uphold the verdict they will give the former president the full process, including oral argument. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/874 "2024-01-29T19:54:11Z")
E. Jean Carroll says she might use the money to help other women Trump has hurt. I hope she does, and that he fumes every time her name is mentioned. > **[E. Jean Carroll says she plans to use $83 million on 'something Donald Trump...](https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Culture/jean-carroll-plans-83-million-donald-trump-hates/story?id=106751516)** > > "If it'll cause him pain for me to give money to certain things, that's my intent," Carroll told George Stephanopoulos on "Good Morning America." ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/875 "2024-01-29T19:54:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That is, once it’s decided that he committed the act, how would a competent lawyer have minimized the judgment against him, or preserved the appeal? > > Assume the same client, so there’s no settlement on the table, and he’s gonna whine and bluster and act the fool. What would a good attorney have done, other than refuse the job? Well, with that underlying assumption, there’s essentially nothing the lawyer could have done to help him. As you say, it’s already been legally determined that he committed the sexual assault that underlies this whole conflict, and that, as a result of that, he defamed her. Those questions were never really at issue here (which underlies the whining about “Not being allowed to defend himself”; Trump thought he should get another kick at the can for the whole thing). So the lawyer’s job here would be to try to limit the size of the judgement as much as possible. You could argue that the defamation didn’t really harm her all that much, or you could have the client show actual remorse for their “intemperate remarks”, in hopes of appealing to sympathy, and receiving only a nominal fine. But as you say, Trump is incapable of showing remorse, or restraint of any kind, and actually went out of his way to further inflame the situation. At that point, the lawyer is basically useless, even one that’s not incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/876 "2024-01-29T19:56:59Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > At that point, the lawyer is basically useless, even one that’s not incompetent. So–genuinely asking–are you saying that Habba doesn’t really deserve any blame here? Like, she may have been bad at her job, but it didn’t make any difference, because a good lawyer couldn’t have gotten a better result in her place? ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/877 "2024-01-29T19:57:17Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Sure, Caretta Petacci took a nice picture too Funny. I seem to have known Eva Braun’s name all my life, but I never knew the name of Mussolini’s mistress. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/878 "2024-01-29T19:59:16Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Well, with that underlying assumption, there’s essentially nothing the lawyer could have done to help him. Indeed. A normal lawyer with a normal client would have settled this ages ago for a 6 figure sum and an apology. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/879 "2024-01-29T20:03:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So–genuinely asking–are you saying that Habba doesn’t really deserve any blame here? Like, she may have been bad at her job, but it didn’t make any difference, because a good lawyer couldn’t have gotten a better result in her place? Well, she doesn’t deserve any blame _from Trump_, for sure. He screwed this up all by himself, and the size of the judgement is all on him. Now, the rest of us can blame her for other things she actually did. She didn’t just fail to control Trump, after all. She took an active role in prolonging this trial, and trying to make the plaintiff and the courts look like the bad guys in all this. We can blame her for all of that, no problem. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/880 "2024-01-29T20:09:09Z")
It’s pure conjecture, but some of those punitive damages have got to be the result of Habba and Trump being the actual worst. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820.md?page=45)