# Civil Trial: Trump v E. Jean Carroll (Carroll wins, awarded $5 million, plus 83.3 million) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [April 17, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820 "2023-04-17T21:59:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1001 "2024-02-21T00:23:09Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If you mean judgment creditors, they can’t execute and force a sale ahead of the mortgagees (or other secured creditors). This is a bit unclear. If there is equity in a property (the market value is greater than the mortgage), the existence of a mortgage or lien doesn’t protect it from a forced sale. It just means those obligations get paid first out of the sale proceeds, right? ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1002 "2024-02-21T00:23:54Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think that Trump genuinely believes that an appeal is a “Do-over” and he’s hoping to get a judge that likes him. And that he can simply keep getting do-overs forever. > > Yes, he’s really that stupid. I believe this too. Every time another action is taken against him, he sees it as a fresh opportunity to start the whole argument again from scratch. If a bailiff comes to take his stuff away, he’s going to automatically say he didn’t get a trial even though he’s already had and lost two. > [@Horatius](#): > > So, wouldn’t this be a whole new grounds for a defamation lawsuit? One of Carroll’s lawyers was on MSNBC last night, watched the clip of Trump running his mouth and said they see all of this. So yes, they are at the very least aware that Trump is giving them fresh grounds for another lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1003 "2024-02-21T00:35:23Z")
Then it becomes an issue of the law of the exact jurisdiction, and how unsecured creditors can enforce against a secured property. In some jurisdictions, filing a lien by itself just puts it on the title. Forced sales can be difficult. If the person on title is underwater on the equity, then there is no point for an unsecured creditor. And then you run into the question of proving that the person on title has a positive equity. That could be difficult if that person has a track record of keeping two or three sets of books (just speaking hypothetically, you understand 🙂 .) I’m just saying that in a major financed building with one or more secured creditors, it can be quite difficult for an unsecured creditor to get a sale quickly, and maybe at all, depending on the stakes of the secured creditors. However, with the size of the money judgments in issue here, the judgment creditors should be able to line up some ~~sharks~~ experienced debtor-creditor lawyers to take a crack at enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1004 "2024-02-21T02:31:54Z")
> **[Trump Daydreams About What He Would Do If He Were Rich](https://www.theonion.com/trump-daydreams-about-what-he-would-do-if-he-were-rich-1851264418)** > > PALM BEACH, FL—Closing his eyes and letting his mind wander, former President Donald Trump was reportedly daydreaming Monday about what he would do if he were rich. “Can you imagine never having to worry about money ever again?” said Trump, who... ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1005 "2024-02-21T03:17:50Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If you mean the mortgagees, they can’t sell the property out from under him (failing default, of course, and that will never happen with such a stable genius in charge, right?). They can only sell their mortgage rights to some other financial institution. > > If you mean judgment creditors, they can’t execute and force a sale ahead of the mortgagees (or other secured creditors). IANAL. Does this mesh with what you said? (I really do not know.) > **[Letitia James says she's prepared to seize Trump's buildings if he can't pay...](https://abcnews.go.com/US/letitia-james-shes-prepared-seize-trumps-assets-pay/story?id=107381482https:%2F%2Fabcnews.go.com%2FUS%2Fletitia-james-shes-prepared-seize-trumps-assets-pay%2Fstory?id=107381482)** > > New York AG Letitia James tells ABC News that she is prepared to seize Donald Trump's assets if he is unable to pay the $354 million fine in his civil fraud case. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1006 "2024-02-21T03:41:49Z")
I’m at the limit of my own knowledge. 🥸 I’m just saying that the more complicated the financing and security arrangements in an asset, the more difficult it is for an unsecured creditor to enforce their claim against that asset. And the one common thread to reports of Trump Org’s business dealings is that they tend to be complicated, according to news reports, with lots of subsidiaries, holding companies, LLCs, and so on. Here’s an old WSJ article from 2016 that flags the issue. It’s paywalled, but the first three paragraphs are available: > [@](#): > > President-elect Donald Trump owns a helicopter in Scotland. > > To be more precise, he has a revocable trust that owns 99% of a Delaware limited liability company that owns 99% of another Delaware LLC that owns a Scottish limited company that owns another Scottish company that owns the 26-year-old Sikorsky S-76B helicopter, emblazoned with a red “TRUMP” on the side of its fuselage. > > Across Mr. Trump’s business, he uses a similar web of privately held LLCs and other entities to house his assets—everything from real estate to a vintage carousel in Manhattan’s Central Park, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of hundreds of pages of his corporate filings and personal financial disclosures. Fifteen entities, for example, are used to hold his interests in two airplanes and three helicopters. So just because an asset has “TRUMP” on it, and The Donald uses it, and says it’s one of his beautiful properties, doesn’t mean that it’s readily accessible to a judgment creditor. [https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-donald-trumps-web-of-llcs-obscures-his-business-interests-1481193002](https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-donald-trumps-web-of-llcs-obscures-his-business-interests-1481193002) It’s almost as if he’s trying to shield assets from enforcement … ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1007 "2024-02-21T03:59:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’m just saying that the more complicated the financing and security arrangements in an asset, the more difficult it is for an unsecured creditor to enforce their claim against that asset. Understood and I get protecting assets is a common thing. It just seems to me that if you (general “you”) owes me money there should be no reason for this sort of obfuscation to work. At the end of the day there is a revenue stream that you get by sitting on top of this pyramid. If you owe me money and cannot pay then that revenue stream is mine. I can collect from it or sell it as I see fit. I don’t get why it is not that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1008 "2024-02-21T04:00:52Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If you owe me money and cannot pay then that revenue stream is mine. I can collect from it or sell it as I see fit. > > I don’t get why it is not that simple. I think,maybe (guessing here) it’s not simple because you’d have to go through court cases with each of the web of LLC’s that hold interest in the revenue stream, and by the time you were done, you’d be 97 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1009 "2024-02-21T04:15:48Z")
Take the Scottish helicopter. Suppose Trump has it brought to NY and uses it. Can AG NY or Carroll try to seize it? Highly doubtful, since it’s not owned by Trump or any of the Trump Org entities named in Engoron’s decision. What about the revenue from the helicopter? That’s earned by the Scottish company. What if that Scottish company just keeps all the helicopter revenue internally, and doesn’t declare a dividend to its Scottish parent company? Neither of the two Scottish parent companies are listed in Engoron’s order, so they’re not subject to the oversight provisions in the order. If there’s no revenue stream in a company subject to the order, very difficult for a judgment creditor to try to collect on it. The Scottish helicopter may be an xtreme example, given the international aspect (and apparently Trump eventually sold it, which means that he gave an order that got transmitted through that web of companies), but it illustrates the difficulty with inter-jurisdictional ownership. For example, the media often reports on « Trump’s golf course at Bedminster, New Jersey », but what does that mean? Does it mean Donald J Trump is listed as the owner on the title? Highly doubtful. There’s likely a similar network of LLCs and business trusts, probably under New Jersey corporate registries. If Bedminster’s ownership structure is at some remove from the NY Trump Org companies in Engoron’s order, and can make business decisions to retain earnings and not pass them up the chain, then would a judgment creditor have anything they could collect on? Again, not meant as legal advice, IANAUSL, I don’t know the details of NY and NJ state debt enforcement rules. But I’ll bet the AGNY and E Jean Carroll are hiring extremely skilled debt collection lawyers and businesses to work on the issues. When half a billion is at stake, there’s room for some really aggressive lawyerin’ to be done. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1010 "2024-02-21T04:32:00Z")
Why not work from the top down? Start with Trump. Find his income streams. Take those. Trump may not own a helicopter but he owns some part of it…even through many steps. Trump makes money…take that money wherever it comes from when it dumps into accounts he can access to pay for a Big Mac. (not really arguing with you, just curious) ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1011 "2024-02-21T04:36:32Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > He had an idiot lawyer for the Carroll cases - His lawyer in the first Carroll case, Joe Tacopina, was actually pretty competent, he just had shit to work with. He bailed shortly before the second trial started, I suspect because Trump was demanding to be a witness and Tacopina knew what a disaster that would be. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1012 "2024-02-21T05:17:15Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Is it possible for the value of the settlement to be increased on appeal? Probably not, but a man can dream. I doubt it; but the appellate court could take into consideration his continued slanders against her, in determining whether to reduce the award. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1013 "2024-02-21T06:13:36Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > His lawyer in the first Carroll case, Joe Tacopina, was actually pretty competent, he Is that the guy who got his retainer up front, in cash? ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1014 "2024-02-21T06:18:55Z")
I think that’s Chris Kise. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1015 "2024-02-21T12:37:19Z")
I wanna see him hire those guys from the billboards: “In a wreck? Need a check?” I bet THEY’D do a bang up job! ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1016 "2024-02-21T12:57:26Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I wanna see him hire those guys from the billboards: “In a wreck? Need a check?” Aren’t those guys usually personal injury lawyers? I’m not sure how well the “we don’t get paid unless you get paid” model is going to work on the defense side. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1017 "2024-02-21T15:33:35Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I wanna see him hire those guys from the billboards: “In a wreck? Need a check? I think even Jim Adler, “The Texas Hammer” has too much dignity and self- respect. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1018 "2024-02-21T15:36:04Z")
There is not a Hammer big enough for Trump’s problems. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1019 "2024-02-21T15:36:10Z")
Jim Adler commercial. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/L1CX2QH6mX8/maxresdefault.jpg "JA UNSTOPPABLE JUMP ENG 30") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1CX2QH6mX8) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820/1020 "2024-02-21T15:54:33Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think,maybe (guessing here) it’s not simple because you’d have to go through court cases with each of the web of LLC’s that hold interest in the revenue stream, and by the time you were done, you’d be 97 years old. Many years ago, I was managing a vineyard; and was dealing with a business in the area that both bought grapes and sold various things to farmers. Said business was owned and run by one individual. I owed the business some money for something I’d bought, I don’t now remember what. The business owed me for grapes they’d bought from me. The payment for the grapes was significantly overdue. The owner started bugging me to pay him. I said I’d pay him after he paid me. He said the two portions of the business were two separate businesses and the payments had nothing to do with each other. I said something along the lines of ‘but they’re both you.’ He said ‘why doesn’t anybody understand that they’re two separate businesses!’ (which I took to mean that he was trying this trick on a whole lot of people, none of whom were taking it well.) He paid me for the grapes. I then used some of that money to pay what he owed me. I gather that the problem was that he wasn’t rich enough (and couldn’t appear rich enough) to pull the trick off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-trial-trump-v-e-jean-carroll-carroll-wins-awarded-5-million-plus-83-3-million/982820.md?page=52)