# Civil union/marriage dilemma **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 13, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867 "2011-07-13T13:58:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![angjax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@angjax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/angjax)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/1 "2011-07-13T13:58:41Z")
Hi there I’m a New Zealander (female) who entered into a Civil Union with my Irish born partner (male). We are now wanting to get married in a traditional marriage ceremony in Ireland next year with family present. In NZ you can change from a Civil Union to a Marriage and back again, however it seems that we wont be able to do this in Ireland according to the information I’ve found. Our families don’t know we have had the Civil Union - long story - so we wanted to do the whole engagement and marriage process as if it was the first time (to the outside world at least). To add to the fun, we are now living in England, so it’s not a case of being able to just have the ceremony in NZ, plus having family present is very important. It seems we have shot ourselves in the foot (feet?) so to speak! Any help would be appreciated:) Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/2 "2011-07-13T14:19:19Z")
Well, this is a first! Could you switch your CV to a marriage at the New Zealand High Commission in London, and then have a church wedding in Ireland as a blessing? Perhaps spin the rellies some line that you’re doing the humdrum NZ paperwork marriage thing in London then the ‘real’ emotional wedding in Ireland? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/3 "2011-07-13T14:20:47Z")
Let me make sure I understand clearly. You want to get married in Ireland without letting anyone find out that you are already civilly united in New Zealand. Is that right? My first thought is that you need to consult an Irish lawyer and a New Zealand lawyer, because you might be committing fraud in either or both countries. Don’t fuck around with the law, especially when there is immigration is involved. The consequences can be harsh. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/4 "2011-07-13T14:40:35Z")
> [@angjax](#): > > In NZ you can change from a Civil Union to a Marriage and back again, This makes it sound like NZ considers civil union to be something different than marriage. If so, then no country anywhere currently considers you married. So why can’t you get married in Ireland? I don’t understand the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/5 "2011-07-13T14:56:14Z")
Since the OP is seeking legal advice, this is better suited to IMHO than GQ. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/6 "2011-07-13T15:08:06Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > This makes it sound like NZ considers civil union to be something different than marriage. If so, then no country anywhere currently considers you married. So why can’t you get married in Ireland? I don’t understand the problem. It’s still a legal partnership and you can’t enter into one when you’re already involved in another. For instance if the OP was married to a Brit, her civil union would give her the same residency benefits as a marriage would, and I imagine Ireland does the same. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/7 "2011-07-13T17:15:31Z")
Do you mean a traditional church wedding? My brother got married in a church last week in Ireland and he’s been married (at a registry office in the US) since last year. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/8 "2011-07-13T19:38:09Z")
As An Gadai indicated, I’m pretty sure that you can find a minister in Ireland that will be happy to perform a religious ceremony for you without completing any of the legal paperwork. Then you can do whatever you want in the eyes of the State back in New Zealand, which may or may not be recognized in England, where you currently reside. I knew a couple several years ago that wanted to get married, but both of their parents thought they were too young, and that they should just live together first. They were stubborn and wanted to get married anyway. So they went to the Justice of the Peace in Michigan and were legally married without telling anyone, and then moved in together. Fast forward 7 years, and the girls mom started asking her daughter, when her live-in boy friend was going to stand up and do the right thing and marry her…it was about time. So the couple went through the show of an engagement, booking the church and the reception hall…the whole she-bang. On the day of the wedding, they secretly told the minister that they were already married…had been for 7 years, and that there would be no marriage certificate to be signed. He said fine. To this day only a few people know that they have actually been married 7 years longer than what everyone thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/9 "2011-07-13T20:01:09Z")
Doesn’t sound that hard to me. Plan a big church wedding (and party!) in Ireland. Tell everyone – your parents, the priest, whoever else – that to make the paperwork easier, you’re going to get legally married in England right before you leave for Ireland. I’m sure the priest will have encountered something similar many times before already. A very large percentage of the married couples I know in the U.S. got legally married at a time other than their ceremony/party, for one reason or another (getting health insurance several months sooner was one reason that I recall). Most people didn’t have a problem with having the legal registration of the marriage with the state be at a different time from the public commitment and promises to each other (which is what’s important, after all). I suppose if for some reason you really, really, don’t want to tell your parents this, then just tell the priest that (or the truth), in secret. If your NZ Civil Partnership is recognized as a marriage in England, you’re all set. If not, I guess you have the choice of asking NZ to change it, or actually getting legally married in England (which may or may not cause complications if you ever got back to NZ). I’d call the NZ consulate in England to get help on the legal issues. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/10 "2011-07-13T21:17:29Z")
Does Ireland recognize the NZ civil union? ---
**Author:** ![Kiwi\_Fruit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiwi_fruit/32/12_2.png) [@Kiwi\_Fruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiwi_Fruit)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/11 "2011-07-13T23:13:32Z")
If your civil union is not recognised as equivalent to marriage in UK or Ireland, then it’s a bit tough. You can change from CU to marriage using a form from the DIA website, but > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **NZ Department of Internal Affairs** > IMPORTANT: one of the parties must deliver the notice personally to the Registrar of > Marriages and make the required statutory declaration. You also need proof of your civil union. While you could just marry in the UK or Ireland, there’s probably all kinds of problems if you then move back to NZ. Married in UK but CU in NZ! Also, I checked the Irish GRO site, and if you have a subsisting civil partnership, that is an impediment to marriage. I don’t get all the legalisms, and you probably don’t either, so I would suggest consulting an Irish lawyer to see what you can do. It looks like you truly have shot yourselves in the foot (or feet). Also, did you know how much notice you must give of intended marriage? 3 months! ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/12 "2011-07-14T00:00:36Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > This makes it sound like NZ considers civil union to be something different than marriage. If so, then no country anywhere currently considers you married. So why can’t you get married in Ireland? I don’t understand the problem. In NZ an opposite-sex couple (as is the OP’s case) you have their relationship solemnised (just side-steppting the “marriage” word for a moment) under either the Marriage Act 1955 or the Civil Union Act 2004. Couples who had their relationship formalised under one (and are eligible for the other) can switch the form of their relationship to the other without formally dissolving the former. (More info at NZ govt Internal Affiars site on [Civil Unions](http://www.dia.govt.nz/diawebsite.nsf/wpg_URL/Services-Births-Deaths-and-Marriages-Civil-Union?OpenDocument)). ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/13 "2011-07-14T00:08:42Z")
Just to add: Regarding recognition in the UK… well the NZ Act binds the Queen of NZ… who happens to be the same person as the Queen of England, Ireland, etc… although while technically wearing a different spiky hat. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/14 "2011-07-14T00:18:09Z")
Great cable TV mini-series. Make sure to have lots of hilarious misunderstandings along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/15 "2011-07-14T01:05:47Z")
[quote=“Apollyon, post:13, topic:588867”] Just to add: Regarding recognition in the UK… well the NZ Act binds the Queen of NZ… who happens to be the same person as the Queen of England, Ireland, etc… although while technically wearing a different spiky hat. :)[/QUOTE Ireland is a republic. ---
**Author:** ![Kiwi\_Fruit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiwi_fruit/32/12_2.png) [@Kiwi\_Fruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiwi_Fruit)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/16 "2011-07-14T02:23:56Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > Just to add: Regarding recognition in the UK… well the NZ Act binds the Queen of NZ… who happens to be the same person as the Queen of England, Ireland, etc… although while technically wearing a different spiky hat. 🙂 Ireland is a republic and also as people have pointed out numerous times, there is no Queen of England, and hasn’t been since about 1701. Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland she is. Queen of New Zealand may be the same person but it is definitely not the same office. But you knew that, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/17 "2011-07-14T03:35:00Z")
> [@Kiwi\_Fruit](#): > > Ireland is a republic and also as people have pointed out numerous times, there is no Queen of England, and hasn’t been since about 1701. Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland she is. _bah_ and _humbug_ 🙂 OK, the Ireland thing was an error – the OP mentioning living in England but going to Ireland tied the two together in my head so that I assumed Northern Ireland. _Mea culpa._ As to Her Majesty: Indeed, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland… where the Great Britain bit consists of what exactly? 😛 > [@](#): > > Queen of New Zealand may be the same person but it is definitely not the same office. But you knew that, didn’t you? Hence the note about hats, yes… distinct titles in each of her realms. The Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Queen of New Zealand just happen to occupy the same body. That agreed – and I did try finding the information about this but couldn’t – I’d find it really odd if NZ civil Unions weren’t recognised in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/18 "2011-07-14T06:03:26Z")
Right. This is complex, and is a good illustration of why clandestine marriage has long been considered to be a Bad Idea, and clandestine civil partnership is really no different. My first suggestion; talk directly to them at the General Register Office about your situation. Under Ireland’s _Civil Registration Act 2004_ it is a legal impediment to marriage if “one of the parties is, or both are, already party to a subsisting civil partnership”. But I think this provision is aimed at preventing you from marrying A when you have a subsisting civil partnership with B. The legislature probably did not have in mind a couple in a civil partnership who wished to “elevate” it into a marriage. On a quick look I don’t see anything in the legislation which would create an exemption for a couple who are one another’s civil partnership, or which explicitly addressed the situation of civil partners who wish to marry one another. But it might be no harm to talk directly to the GRO; there may be a provision that I have missed, or they may have adopted an interpretation of the Act, under which being in a civil partnership _with one another_ is not an impediment to marriage. It’s worth asking about, anyway. If that gets you nowhere, what then? Well, you could dissolve your civil partnership, and so be free to marry. Dissolving a civil partnership in Ireland is a pretty big deal, even by consent; it’s a divorce, basically, with all the panoply of judges and courts that that involves. I’ve no idea whether dissolving a civil partnership in England is a more straightforward matter; if you do decide to go this route, let’s hope it is. Or, another idea: is your NZ civil partnership an impediment to marriage in England? I know you’d prefer to be married in Ireland, but given that you are living in England a marriage there is not out of the question, and asking your family to come to England is not the same as asking them to come to New Zealand. Can you just keep your civil partnership, and have a church wedding in Ireland, with no state paperwork? Not so straightforward, I’m afraid. A few points: - A church wedding ceremony in Ireland is a valid, effective, legal wedding, with or without state paperwork. If you fail to register your wedding, you have committed the offence of not registering a wedding. But you are still legally married. - Except, of course, that you _won’t_ be legally married, because your civil partnership is a legal impediment to marriage. - But, the thing is, churches like the fact that their marriages are fully legally recognised, and they don’t want to do anything which would disrupt this cosy and convenient arrangement. So, generally, they won’t celebrate your marriage unless you are, legally, free to marry, and they can comply with the obligation to file the paperwork. I’m not saying that it’s impossible that you would find an obliging clergyman who would do this for you, but it might not be straightforward. - What you may be able to get is a convalidation/blessing/some such term, which would look startlingly like a wedding, and might fool even your husband’s eagle-eyed Auntie May into thinking that it was. But this depends on your denomination. Plus, churches normally do this when a couple is civilly married, and are bringing their canonical status into line with their civil status. Churches, for what it’s worth, tend to think that you _ought_ to be civilly married as well as canonically married, so they may not be keen to do this for a couple who are not, civilly speaking, married. - If so, you may be able to get around the problem by “converting” your NZ civil partnership to a civil marriage, and then having the church convalidation ceremony. But you may not be able to convert in this way when you are no longer resident in NZ. I have no idea what the position is in the UK if two civil partners wish to marry. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/19 "2011-07-14T06:25:44Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > _bah_ and _humbug_ 🙂 > > OK, the Ireland thing was an error – the OP mentioning living in England but going to Ireland tied the two together in my head so that I assumed Northern Ireland. _Mea culpa._ > > As to Her Majesty: Indeed, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland… where the Great Britain bit consists of what exactly? 😛 > > Hence the note about hats, yes… distinct titles in each of her realms. The Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Queen of New Zealand just happen to occupy the same body. > > That agreed – and I did try finding the information about this but couldn’t – I’d find it really odd if NZ civil Unions weren’t recognised in the UK. _squeak_ I’ve already said that they are. Gay couple friends of mine have a NX CU and the NZ partner has residency as a result. Countries with civil partnerships or unions (including the UK and NZ) tend to have reciprocal agreements about this, and it’s got bugger all to do with Her Maj. In the UK a civil partnership/union has the same legal status as marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867/20 "2011-07-14T23:59:18Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > _squeak_ I’ve already said that they are… Countries with civil partnerships or unions (including the UK and NZ) tend to have reciprocal agreements about this, and it’s got \*\*\*\*\*\* all to do with Her Maj. In the UK a civil partnership/union has the same legal status as marriage. Apologies for missing that. Yeah, the HM bit was mostly just silliness on my part (about Act “binding the crown”) that didn’t come off right. :smack: Good to know the NZ CU is fully reciprocal in the UK… I’m guessing where it all gets complicated is where countries do not allow / support same-sex unions (or anything that looks marriage-like) even if they would recognise an opposite-sex NZ CU. (Note for Mods: word starred out in **SanVito’s** quote to avoid stoopid, stoopid network profanity filter). ☹ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-union-marriage-dilemma/588867.md?page=2)