# "Civil War" in England **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 21, 2019, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937 "2019-02-21T01:15:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/1 "2019-02-21T01:15:09Z")
In Arthur Conan Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes story _The Cardboard Box_, there is this passage describing how Holmes deduces what Watson was thinking: > [@](#): > > You were recalling the incidents of [Henry Ward] Beecher’s career. I was well aware that you could not do this without thinking of the mission which he undertook on behalf of the North at the time of the Civil War, for I remember your expressing your passionate indignation at the way in which he received by the more turbulent of our people. I was surprised to see the term “Civil War” used to refer to the American Civil War. I had believed that the use of the unadorned term “Civil War” in England generally refers to the English Civil War (1642-51). Of course, the earlier reference to Beecher makes it clear to which war he was referring. But if he hadn’t mentioned Beecher, without other context, would “Civil War” in Victorian England be an unambiguous reference to the American Civil War? How about today? Of course in the US it is unambiguous, and I am sure that a sizable number of Americans think that the term can ONLY refer to the American Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/2 "2019-02-21T01:28:32Z")
I believe there is some room for confusion without the context. I say this as someone who has lived in the UK. As near as I can tell, my maternal ancestors were forced to emigrate from Yorkshire in the 1600s because they backed the wrong side. They didn’t do much better after they settled in the American South. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/3 "2019-02-21T01:56:52Z")
The American Civil War took place in the Victorian period, so it would be the first thing they’d think of. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/4 "2019-02-21T01:59:15Z")
Perhaps the American Civil War seemed more current back in the 1890’s. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/5 "2019-02-21T02:54:24Z")
I think it’s simply clear because of the context. They are talking about Henry Ward Beecher’s exploits on behalf of the North in the Civil War. There’s no ambiguity regarding which civil war is meant, so there’s no need to specify and no room for misunderstanding. This is a conversation between and for people with a certain level of education and awareness, so the context is understood. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/6 "2019-02-21T12:02:13Z")
Also, Conan Doyle was a hack writer, Watson’s original notes undoubtedly specified “the recent American” Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/7 "2019-02-21T12:45:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think it’s simply clear because of the context. They are talking about Henry Ward Beecher’s exploits on behalf of the North in the Civil War. There’s no ambiguity regarding which civil war is meant, so there’s no need to specify and no room for misunderstanding. This is a conversation between and for people with a certain level of education and awareness, so the context is understood. Agree with this. Also given the time period - the US Civil War would have been recent history. Also the reference to ‘The North’ as one of the sides would point to the US too (the English Civil War wasn’t North v South). In modern times, I’m not sure even the English Civil War is particularly front of mind for most people (and pretty sketchy for many), so if you said ‘Civil War’ to the average Brit, you may need to qualify which one your meant, as they could take it for English or US, I suspect, simply because US popular media seems to talk about it a fair amount and British media hardly talks about the English Civil War at all. It was a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/8 "2019-02-21T12:46:36Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > As near as I can tell, my maternal ancestors were forced to emigrate from Yorkshire in the 1600s because they backed the wrong side. They didn’t do much better after they settled in the American South. ☹ Half the country backed the wrong side - they didn’t all leave. Do you have any more details? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/9 "2019-02-21T13:32:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think it’s simply clear because of the context. They are talking about Henry Ward Beecher’s exploits on behalf of the North in the Civil War. There’s no ambiguity regarding which civil war is meant, so there’s no need to specify and no room for misunderstanding. This is a conversation between and for people with a certain level of education and awareness, so the context is understood. What he said. Also the American Civil War was between North and South; the English one was between ‘Roundheads’ (Parliament) and ‘Cavaliers’ (Royalty.) ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/10 "2019-02-21T14:20:40Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Also, Conan Doyle was a hack writer, Watson’s original notes undoubtedly specified “the recent American” Civil War. Wait, you’ve got a sublime theory here: that John (or occasionally James) Watson, MD was a real person who took copious notes on his exploits with an equally real Sherlock Holmes. Then this Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got hold of them somehow\* and started cranking out stories, first in local journals and The Strand Magazine, then in book form. \*Might Doyle have won them off Watson in a high-stakes pinochle game? Or are we to presume a family connection? I’d like to think that the notes were found in a spinster aunt’s lockbox, next to a packet of letters… correspondence with her dear friend Mary Watson. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/11 "2019-02-21T14:57:09Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Wait, you’ve got a sublime theory here: that John (or occasionally James) Watson, MD was a real person who took copious notes on his exploits with an equally real Sherlock Holmes. > > Then this Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got hold of them somehow\* and started cranking out stories, first in local journals and The Strand Magazine, then in book form. > > \*Might Doyle have won them off Watson in a high-stakes pinochle game? > Or are we to presume a family connection? I’d like to think that the notes were found in a spinster aunt’s lockbox, next to a packet of letters… correspondence with her dear friend Mary Watson. It’s well known in educated circles that Dr. Watson wrote the stories (except for a couple that Holmes wrote himself). Doyle was simply the public face of the operation. Even in recent decades, it’s not unheard of for an unpublished, previously unknown manuscript by Watson to turn up somewhere–a famous example is _The Seven-Per-Cent Solution_, discovered by Nicholas Meyer in the early 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/12 "2019-02-21T15:11:18Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > In modern times, I’m not sure even the English Civil War is particularly front of mind for most people (and pretty sketchy for many), so if you said ‘Civil War’ to the average Brit, you may need to qualify which one your meant, as they could take it for English or US, I suspect, simply because US popular media seems to talk about it a fair amount and British media hardly talks about the English Civil War at all. It was a long time ago. Ok, this is interesting. In the US, the term “Civil War” unambiguously refers to the US Civil War. Even given context, it wouldn’t be used to refer to another one. For example, I would be very surprised to see an American write “You were recalling the incidents of Oliver Cromwell’s career in the Civil War.” I assumed the situation was similar in England, but apparently that is not the case. About the “recentness” issue, there’s no indication in the story of what year it is set, but it was written in 1893. At that time the US Civil War had ended 28 years earlier, so it’s not particularly recent. Referring to the “recent Civil War” then would be like referring to the “recent Gulf War” (1991) today. Although of course it was a lot more recent that the English Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/13 "2019-02-21T15:18:04Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > About the “recentness” issue, there’s no indication in the story of what year it is set, but it was written in 1893. At that time the US Civil War had ended 28 years earlier, so it’s not particularly recent. Referring to the “recent Civil War” then would be like referring to the “recent Gulf War” (1991) today. Although of course it was a lot more recent that the English Civil War. WWII ended 73 years ago. Yet if you were see a reference to “The World War,” you’d assume it was referring to that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/14 "2019-02-21T15:22:09Z")
Or even just “The War”. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/15 "2019-02-21T16:15:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Or even just “The War”. Indeed. And that despite wars that have superseded it. But that’s to do with familiarity. The English Civil War is very remote to most people, and indeed predates the UK, so only relates to part of the nation. So I think we would habitually refer to it as ‘the English Civil War’, and merely ‘Civil War’ may draw blanks or questions as to which one. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/16 "2019-02-21T17:52:21Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > I was surprised to see the term “Civil War” used to refer to the American Civil War. I had believed that the use of the unadorned term “Civil War” in England generally refers to the English Civil War (1642-51). Of course, the earlier reference to Beecher makes it clear to which war he was referring. But if he hadn’t mentioned Beecher, without other context, would “Civil War” in Victorian England be an unambiguous reference to the American Civil War? How about today? Of course in the US it is unambiguous, and I am sure that a sizable number of Americans think that the term can ONLY refer to the American Civil War. Beecher was well-known in England: [he was a frequent speaker there, and given the context of his staunch aboliltionism](https://archive.org/details/asummerinengland00ponduoft/page/n10he), it was clear to Doyle’s readers that the Civil War referred to must be the American one. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/17 "2019-02-21T18:04:31Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Wait, you’ve got a sublime theory here: that John (or occasionally James) Watson, MD was a real person who took copious notes on his exploits with an equally real Sherlock Holmes. > > Then this Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got hold of them somehow\* and started cranking out stories, first in local journals and The Strand Magazine, then in book form. [The Straight Dope:](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2088/did-sherlock-holmes-really-exist/) > [@Cecil Adams](#): > > Let’s call it the Game. The point is to pretend that Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson were real, that Watson wrote the stories reporting actual events, and that Conan Doyle was merely Watson’s literary agent. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/18 "2019-02-21T21:23:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think it’s simply clear because of the context. They are talking about Henry Ward Beecher’s exploits on behalf of the North in the Civil War. There’s no ambiguity regarding which civil war is meant, so there’s no need to specify and no room for misunderstanding. This is a conversation between and for people with a certain level of education and awareness, so the context is understood. Right- Beecher was an American, and relatively recently in the public eye. It’s no different than saying “Cromwell’s religious tolerance was unusual for a man of the Civil War era.”. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/19 "2019-02-22T01:52:40Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Wait, you’ve got a sublime theory here: that John (or occasionally James) Watson, MD was a real person who took copious notes on his exploits with an equally real Sherlock Holmes. > > Then this Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got hold of them somehow\* and started cranking out stories, first in local journals and The Strand Magazine, then in book form. > > \*Might Doyle have won them off Watson in a high-stakes pinochle game? > Or are we to presume a family connection? I’d like to think that the notes were found in a spinster aunt’s lockbox, next to a packet of letters… correspondence with her dear friend Mary Watson. [The Literary Agent Hypothesis isn’t a new one, nor unique to the Sherlock Holmes stories.](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LiteraryAgentHypothesis) ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937/20 "2019-02-22T02:43:14Z")
Sure, just tell digs that I haven’t had an original idea ever. . . [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-england/829937.md?page=2)