# Civil war in Kirghizist-. . . Kyrgyz-. . . Elbonia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767 "2010-04-11T21:15:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/1 "2010-04-11T21:15:02Z")
The former Soviet Republic of [Kyrgyzstan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrgyzstan) was the scene of the [“Tulip Revolution”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_Revolution) five years ago. [Now there’s upheaval again:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Kyrgyzstani_riots) Riots all over the country, the president fled from the capital, Bishkek, Foreign Minister [Roza Otunbayeva](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Otunbayeva) heading up a purported new government. A matter of some international interest because the U.S. has an [Air Force base](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_Center_at_Manas) in Bishkek and it is of strategic importance in the Afghanistan war. But I can’t seem to find anything about which side, if any, the U.S. is supporting. Which side **should** the U.S. be supporting? Any opinions? ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/2 "2010-04-11T21:21:33Z")
I don’t know who the US should be supporting but I’ll just say that as it stands, it’s quite premature to speak of events in Kyrgyzstan as a civil war. It’s more like a coup, really. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/3 "2010-04-11T22:58:08Z")
Whichever side will let us keep our bases there. They play an important role in staging our efforts in Afghanistan. > [@Svejk\_1](#): > > I don’t know who the US should be supporting but I’ll just say that as it stands, it’s quite premature to speak of events in Kyrgyzstan as a civil war. It’s more like a coup, really. True. And, if I’m not mistaken, how the previous government came to power. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/4 "2010-04-12T00:57:18Z")
at the time there was a slightly different situation, as the opposition challenged a stolen election, which made their claims to power much more legitimate. This time around, there were no elections to rally around. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/5 "2010-04-12T02:12:29Z")
What’s more, I understand there’s a Kyrgyz tourist who can’t leave the JFK Airport terminal until this is settled . . . and he didn’t even know “Cats” has closed . . . ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/6 "2010-04-12T02:21:32Z")
[This article](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/04/09/guide_to_kyrgyzstan_uprising/index.html) says the US backed the ousted dictator to get that military base while the Russians have backed the coup leaders. It’s amazing how America has been able to spread its military tendrils around Russia, China, and Iran to the extent that it has. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/7 "2010-04-12T03:34:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What’s more, I understand there’s a Kyrgyz tourist who can’t leave the JFK Airport terminal until this is settled . . . and he didn’t even know “Cats” has closed . . . The Red Cross will be sending him some vowels. ---
**Author:** ![Hallucinex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba9def/32.png) [@Hallucinex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hallucinex)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/8 "2010-04-12T03:59:45Z")
Is there much chance of Bakiev coming back to power now? Would sticking by him at this point achieve much other than alienating the new government (which is so far sticking with the current agreement on the Manas base; not sure how it’ll play out when that expires, but seems like opposing them may be a sure fire way to guarantee that it won’t be renewed)? Some thoughts on what the international community should be doing at the [Roberts Report](http://roberts-report.blogspot.com/2010/04/deja-vu-in-kyrgyzstan-5-years-later.html): > [@](#): > > In order to facilitate such measures, the international community must also learn from its past mistakes. After the March 2005 events, the international community was slow to help the new government, and when it did, it did not push Bakiyev and his people hard enough to adopt real democratic reforms. This time, it is critical that the international community recognize and offer support to a new government as soon as it is clear that one has emerged. If this is not forthcoming in the next week, there should be international attempts to broker a peace. In supporting a new government, however, the international community cannot only think of its own interests (such as military bases), it must push the new state to adopt changes that will ensure that we will not be witnessing another revolution anytime in the upcoming decade . Furthermore, this does not mean dictating institution building from the outside, but engaging the government seriously on its own plans to avoid future political conflict. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/9 "2010-06-15T02:29:36Z")
[Looks like things are heating up again.](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gS-xs7sBguewttUyAhxKUWRgnRzAD9GBCFO80)☹ ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/10 "2010-06-15T16:11:09Z")
Is there an option of not taking sides on the table? If so, I’d pick that one. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/11 "2010-06-16T07:57:52Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Is there an option of not taking sides on the table? If so, I’d pick that one. nope, not much hope of that. we have bases there, crucial to the war effort in dominating the ME. here is some recent news. ‘Moscow and Washington fear instability in the region’ Eurasia Group analyst Ana Jelenkovic told Channel 4 News it was in the interests of Russia and the United States, both of whom have military bases in Kyrgyzstan, for the situation in the area to stabilise. [http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/asia\_pacific/kyrgyzstanuzbekistan+ethnic+violence+save+the+children+says+reports+suggest+more+than+500+have+died+in+osh+and+jalalabad/3681632](http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/asia_pacific/kyrgyzstanuzbekistan+ethnic+violence+save+the+children+says+reports+suggest+more+than+500+have+died+in+osh+and+jalalabad/3681632) “Certainly, Russia is looking to ensure that this does not destabilise any of the countries in the region,” she said. "Moscow definitely fears instability in the region. Prolonging the lawlessness in Kyrgyzstan could, in Moscow’s view, eventually provide safe harbour for Islamic militants. "If Russia does feel compelled to act, it will be for apparently humanitarian reasons. If the violence continues, then a failure to act would expose Moscow to international criticism. But Russia has been very cautious - it does not want to intervene hastily. "If the violence continues, then the likelihood of Russian intervention increases - as long as it looks like it can be contained and it looks like it is humanitarian. As far as US interests in the region were concerned, Ana Jelenkovic explained that "The US also does not want to see upheaval in the area. Its base at Manas forms a crucial part of its transportation arrangements for Afghanistan. "Broadly speaking, the US also has an interest in stability in the region, given that it borders Afghanistan, with the possibility of the upheavals spilling over into the Afghan conflict. “The US base is symbolic of the United States’ relationship with the region. Being told to vacate that base would not put it in a good long-term relationship with the Kyrgyz government.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/12 "2010-06-16T16:22:29Z")
Just to clear up one point of apparent confusion, Kyrgyzstan does not border Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/13 "2010-06-18T23:38:11Z")
> **[Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/)** > > News, analysis from the Middle East & worldwide, multimedia & interactives, opinions, documentaries, podcasts, long reads and broadcast schedule. Kyrgyz toll ‘could touch 2,000’ Al Jazeera’s Robin Forestier-Walker reports from Osh on the violence and grief in Kyrgyzstan’s south Roza Otunbayeva, Kyrgyzstan’s interim leader, says the death toll from ethnic clashes in the country’s south could reach 2000, manifold higher than the official figure of 200. Her comments on Friday came shortly before she visited Osh, the southern city wracked by clashes between ethnic Kyrgyz and Uzbeks over the last few days. “I would multiply by 10 times the official figures,” she told the Russian daily Kommersan article continues. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/14 "2010-06-28T11:33:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Just to clear up one point of apparent confusion, Kyrgyzstan does not border Afghanistan. mostly borders China, Afghanistan, Iran, etc. main problem for them is the (sic) US’ transit base’ just happens to be right on their border/s a few minutes US missiles flying time away from them, why should they not feel uneasy? . Despite Russia’s and China’s pressure on the Kyrgyzstan Govt to close the USA base, and the Kyrgyzstan Govt actually voting to close it, the US refused, just upped the ante, increased the rent.. the base remains, a constant ‘threat’ to ‘them’ Russia, China, Iran, in fact, the whole ME? Guess their main question is, does the US want their bases in every country in the world, including Theirs? insist on them? would that bring 'world peace"? ---
**Author:** ![Hallucinex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba9def/32.png) [@Hallucinex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hallucinex)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/15 "2010-06-28T12:50:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Just to clear up one point of apparent confusion, Kyrgyzstan does not border Afghanistan. > [@Zanthor](#): > > mostly borders China, Afghanistan, Iran, etc. 😕 Kyrgyzstan borders Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and China… [QUOTE=The Article Zanthor linked to] Broadly speaking, the US also has an interest in stability in the region, given that it borders Afghanistan, with the possibility of the upheavals spilling over into the Afghan conflict. [/QUOTE] They seem to just be noting that ‘the region’ borders Afghanistan. But for ‘the uphevals [to spill] over into the Afghan conflict’ from Kyrgyzstan, it’s gonna have to push its way through Uzbekistan or Tajikistan first.. > [@Zanthor](#): > > … to close the USA base, and the Kyrgyzstan Govt actually voting to close it, the US refused… I don’t know the details of what’s been going on with the status of the Manas base, but right when things started I remember Otunbaeva saying that they hadn’t made any decisions regarding the base. Since then the only rumblings I’ve heard about the base have been mostly arguments over fuel prices (fuel prices in general being one of the issues that led to the overthrow of Bakiev’s govt, so this more a symptom of that I guess) - and I think there may have been some talk of Manas being used as a bargaining chip to pressure the UK (I think?) into handing over Bakiev’s son. Pretty sure some people within the new govt may have expressed a desire to have Manas shut down, but was there really any explicit action/statement on behalf of the government itself to have the base shut down, which the US then refused?? ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/16 "2010-06-28T14:03:11Z")
seems pretty straightforward to me. [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/world/asia/24base.html?\_r=2](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/world/asia/24base.html?_r=2) In Reversal, Kyrgyzstan Won’t Close A U.S. Base By MICHAEL SCHWIRTZ and CLIFFORD J. LEVY Published: June 23, 2009 MOSCOW — Kyrgyzstan has essentially reversed a decision to close an American air base that is central to the NATO mission in nearby Afghanistan, after the United States acceded to sharply higher rent and to minor restrictions on the site, Kyrgyz and American officials said Tuesday. The turnabout is a victory for the Obama administration as it seeks to step up operations to quell the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan. The Kyrgyz government had ordered the base closed in February, apparently under pressure from the Kremlin, which has resented the deep American military presence in an area of the world that it has long considered its zone of influence. article continues ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/17 "2010-06-28T15:20:29Z")
The really ugly aspect of this is that it appears to involve ethnic cleansing, or at least pogroms, against Kyrgyzstan’s Uzbek minority. From [_The Nation:_](http://www.thenation.com/article/36683/kyrgyzstan-brink) > [@](#): > > On Internatsionalnaya Street, named after the Moscow-sponsored 1920s movement that pledged to bring the fruits of Communism to workers of any ethnicity in every country, Uktam Turdibayev pulls charred pieces of his neighbors’ bones from the smoking debris that was their house. He’s already retrieved a whole family – five children and two adults – dead, from the cinders. They were all Uzbeks, a minority in this post-Soviet state. > > Led by armored military vehicles, Turdibayev says, several hundred young Kyrgyz men, some with Kalashnikovs, ransacked his neighborhood, methodically shooting, then looting, then setting the houses alight. I heard the same story a dozen times. > > “The helicopters saw but didn’t help. The government doesn’t help. No one helps,” he said. Turdibayev stayed in the mahalla while his wife and children fled to a village outside of Osh. “If we had weapons, we would have defended ourselves, but we have no weapons. They’ll pay.” > > Perhaps 2,000 died in the violence, according to interim President Roza Otunbayeva. Most were Uzbeks, but Kyrgyz died as well. Now there is no clear way forward for reconciliation. It appears the combatants were ordinary young men, reportedly aided on one side by a few Kyrgyz soldiers passing out weapons, or even jumping into the action. This could get even worse . . . ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/13edae/32.png) [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/18 "2010-06-30T16:19:49Z")
As a generally apathetic consumer of the world news, I have to say: shit like this just breaks my heart. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/19 "2010-06-30T17:35:29Z")
It’s like the Hutu and the Tutsi in Rwanda, or the Serbs and the Croats in Bosnia: To an outsider they look just the same, physically and culturally; but they see each other as The Other. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767/20 "2010-07-02T23:58:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s like the Hutu and the Tutsi in Rwanda, or the Serbs and the Croats in Bosnia: To an outsider they look just the same, physically and culturally; but they see each other as The Other. Do not think i can agree here sir, not entirely. seen Docos, mostly on [www.rt.com](http://www.rt.com), about how they different groups there grew up together as friends, only enemies recently. the main question being why they are now suddenly enemies… main thought seems to suggest there are three layers of angst. 1/ political, america supported the previous govt, one that had a family generations long rule, nearly a dictatorship, but one pro america. mainly to establish and maintain the Manas US base. against Russia and China. feed and supply the War in the ME. ( one who’s main rulers son is now seeking Political asylum in the UK, ( London ) with $millions missapropriated… when the rules state that any political asylum seeker should seek in the nearest EU country, not one far away like London. how many other dubious asylum seekers are in London? from dubious rulers we created??? the list is long… varied and illustrious… 2/ serious bad influence from the drug dealers, being that Kyrgyzstan is the main thoroughfare for heroin from Afghanistan to the West ( initial reports stated that the cause of the up-rest was too well panned and executed to be anything less than of dubious intent) meaning, not just usual ethnic civil uprest The ethnic cleansing being way down on the list of causative factors for this current pain there… best and more important, why not ask, just what did we do to currently support and cause their downfall, ??\> cold war, detabalise country after country who did not totally yield to us? etc etc Countries in who we needed to establish war bases to better dominate and bleed the ME??? ordinary ppl die, seems it matter not a whit… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civil-war-in-kirghizist-kyrgyz-elbonia/535767.md?page=2)