No, it’s not causative; usually it just happens when something else has stirred things up. But it is the most tragic part, and potentially the most deadly.
Lothrop Stoddard was a racist asshole, but he did say one true thing I came across skimming his The Rising Tide of Color: “Genuine race-war is war to the knife.” Think a moment about the meaning of that phrase, “to the knife.” The warlord or party boss who wants to exploit or oppress you is scary; but not as scary as the lightly-armed neighbor who wants to kill you and everybody like you.
The most deadly?
i thought that was in no way debateable, us ( a )
We reign supreme.
to the knife, yes i guess that describes well enough the US policy of remote death inflicted by Cruise missiles, Predator Drone knives edge to those all and sundry, even those NOT being directly, or remotely connected with 'terrorists.
only cause they try to defend themselves against us… our onslaught.
we deal in death for profit,
They see us as oppressors, true terrorists, do you have any answer for them?
we lay waste waste to their countries, ’
one by one.
set up bases, Dominate, local politics etc etc etc.
the points i raised have to deal with just why the usa Manas base is still allowed to exist so close to Russia / China, ? borders?
arch rivals…
plus the political factors of the regime changes the Western nations who matter most, dictate to these nations?
they ( alone ) are ‘expendable’ ?
despite how many locals lives have to be wasted to achieve the Wests aims… ambitions…
how many local lives it costs. don’t matter at all…?
There is the real pain…especially, mainly
what we inflict upon them, not them on us…
or even, them upon each other…
we simply dont care about what they do to each other, so longs as it achieves our aims.
see for example how the CIA installed the Shah, or Saddam, as just 2 of many recent examples…
who provoked this mess?, mostly us
Yes? or no?
For the most part I don’t know that they totally see each other as The Other, but it does sound like there are enough cultural and structural differences that can be played up in a crisis to exacerbate any tensions. I think there are a whole bunch of different factors that play into the risks of ethnic violence, so it’s really hard (and probably really incorrect) to try to narrow the causes down to any one thing.
Firstly you’ve got the borders between the soviet republics drawn up under Stalin that deliberately left ethnic groups overlapping across the republics (which can help contribute to ethnic tensions). After independence you’ve got a bit of a boost in nationalism, with each of the countries trying to assert its own distinct identity. So with these overlapping ethnic groups, whenever there’s something like a big push for increasing the official role of the Kyrgyz language (for example), the Uzbeks sitting in Kyrgyzstan start to feel marginalized. Adding to that is that the Uzbeks have often been not as well represented in government as would represent their numbers in the region.
There are also religious differences, with the Uzbeks generally tending to be more religious. They see the Kyrgyz as being not particularly good muslims, while the Kyrgyz in turn see them as being too fundamentalist (sweeping generalization, but there have been some perceptions along those lines).
Historically the Kyrgyz have been a lot more rural and nomadic, with the Uzbeks being relatively much more sedentary. This is reflected a little now, with the Kyrgyz representing the bulk of the rural population in Kyrgyzstan, and the Uzbeks in that area making up a fair amount of the urban population. So any decline in the agricultural economy hits rural Kyrgyz pretty hard, but leaves the Uzbeks less affected since they’re much more in the cities - so I think some of these sorts of economic problems have helped to contribute to (or at least bolster) some tensions.
I read the following the other week which might be interesting - mostly relating to the earlier 1990 violence in Osh:
‘Don’t Kill Me, I’m a Kyrgyz!’: An Anthropological Analysis of Violence in the Osh Ethnic Conflict
V Tishkov - Journal of Peace Research, 1995 http://www.jstor.org/pss/425063 (needs JSTOR access to read the article; not sure if it’s available elsewhere)
The first covers some of the causes of general ethnic tension mentioned above - seems worth a read.
The second one talks mostly about the outbreak of violence in Osh in 1990 and how things kicked off and what happened during the conflict. Sounded like the motivations for both groups were revenge, largely founded on rumours of violence already having occurred. So it seemed like the Kyrgyz heard about Uzbeks killing a bunch of people in Uzgen, and they responded, then Uzbeks responded to those attacks and it goes on from there…
Noted. As best I can tell, the Manas base (and the US in general) has very little if anything to do with what’s going on here (apart from being affected by it).
Nope. Pretty standard “The US is the EVIL!” dogma. Pay no mind.
[/QUOTE]
assumption, with no solid basis.
well, apart from its obvious relevance.
Funny, i thought my argument already defined by the thread title.
already answered to the affirmative,
They simply don’t matter.
We cant even spell their name, nor want to…
Kergis what, Stan?, just how many Stans are there?
who really cares?
Well, there are a few Stans, in that region, all are a result of the cold war, how we conspirred to bring Russia down, bleed them dry, much as we are now in stupid wars we create…
Stans, ?
more than most western ppl would even know about.
much less less care
sad reflection on them, for being so distant and separated from us,
must be their fault. huh???
Only we alone matter, only we are important???
How it affects us, is what matters, right?
US bases so close to the ME Oil, Russia, China.
Next we will want to be setting up missile shields in Poland, telling Russia its for their own good. too,
Shield Israel against Iran, who doesn’t even want nukes…
Oh wait, we are already doing this…
if it wasn’t so sad, it would be amusing to study the mechanisms of Dominance.
how we perpetrate it, inflict it…
as for poetry, try this
Pigs, 3 different ones, Pink Floyd
BTW, ever bother to research whose son is seeking political asylum in London, from Kyrgyzstan? with $ millions misappropriated…? from their treasury,
hint, its the Govt the US supported.
When basic rules state that asylum seekers must seek asylum in the nearest EU county, to them, NOT London…
safe haven brought with $blood money?
hey girls and boys, this is supposed to be great debates.
my premise of a debate seemed straightforward,
Does the US foreign policy of aggression rule?
My reaction to Zanthor’s presentation of his views is to conceive of Oliver North as a stealth advisor to Pres. Bush (43), who might react to him with “That’s another fine Stan you’ve got us into, Ollie!”
IIRC there was some deal with the Russians to shut down (or not renew the terms on) the US base, which the Kyrgyz government promptly reneged on when the US agreed to pay a much higher price for use of the base. The Russians were a tad miffed.
I’d like to blame the Long Arm of Putin for this unrest but to be honest I’ve heard nothing so far to suggest that this particular mess is of his making, nor of the US’s. It’s just Bishkektown.
the regime change totally irrelevant then< ?
of no bearing?
a dog begs for scraps at the masters table perhaps?
the millions amounted to about 60 - 70 per year.
for a country already impoverished by the US bleeding the USSR dry,
laying the USSR belly up like Iraq, Aghanistan too, probably,
we are guiltless? is that what you say? blame them???
only them?
yep, just as i thought, no answer. to he…
curious why tho, what part on how and why we manipulate foreign countries politics… is $too complex $for $you?
look up Regime Change as step one, then just what crimes against humanity we perpetrate to achieve this in foreign nations.
pick any nation, there are many…;
Try Kyrgyzstan, for a start
its meant to be slightly hidden,
Supposed to make you search, just a wee bit…
what i want to know mainly is why we keep invading foreign nations? bombing the crap out of them.
cos it feels good?
We like killing, dying?
cos the wars we inflict upon humanity fuels such a$ HALLIBURTON, and other $US death $dealers…?
Full Spectrum Dominance.
We should just come out and state it, we rule, all others are expendable…
satisfy our lust for ME oil.
Diminish Russia, Communism,
China too, even tho they own us, lock stock and cruise missile smoking barrel…?
( as if our Capatilsm could ever be held up as a shinny light …? )
If Oil was not traded in $US worldwide we would too be a failed state…
just curious, just what is it that causes us to kill so much?
Simple answers will do. i don’t want to be seen to be coercing you into thinking too much about how many of 'them have died, so few of us, how it is simply not right.
it obviously will be too hard for you…
EG, Our blood sucking OIL soaking, Nascar fuel wasting STUPIDITY,
or plain ole everyday suburban SUV"S?
explain and justify.
Greed>, simple, plain, no excuse, Lust? for power, Dominance, again no excuse,
What else, ? I will leave it up to you to excuse yourselves.
I don’t think you got no excuse, but that’s just me…
i just want us to stop killing them, causing them to hate us.
Supporting the wrong party in Their countries, just cos in the short term our gain is more assured, at their expense…
simple things really
again, main question, too hard for you to fathom???
agreed, but I hurt very bad,
we continue to kill them and feel good about it.
and i don’t, i bleed openly,
nor should we feel good when waging war upon innocent foreign nations methinks.
still waiting for honest debate,
I spoke from my heart,
about our justification, their no justification for defending themselves…