# Civilian etiquette in the presence of military officers? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 14, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-etiquette-in-the-presence-of-military-officers/748975 "2016-03-14T14:47:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-etiquette-in-the-presence-of-military-officers/748975/41 "2016-03-20T04:05:22Z")
> [@Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](#): > > FWIW, I specified our corporate culture. That is, the culture of the corporation I work at. > There are certainly high tech companies that are more formal. That was a response to JRDelirious’s statement that managers might take formality as a mark of being an outsider **in the field** , and possibly using that as a reason to mistrust or not hire someone. But still, the proper response to formality in an informal workplace is “Oh, just call me Bob”, not taking it as an insult. It’s not an insult, and anyone who thinks it is unqualified for any level of management. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-etiquette-in-the-presence-of-military-officers/748975/42 "2016-03-20T10:57:36Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Heh, I see a certain figure of speech touches a nerve… Remember that \*\*Gunslinger \*\*was making an illustration of how come the custom came to be, even with an explicit reference to the past. My reading (and re-re-reading) is that he’s clearly describing the rules as they are now, while tossing in a single parenthetical reference indicating that they have some pedigree. Which reminds me: > [@Gunslinger](#): > > Civilian analogy: if you see your immediate supervisor outside work, you address them by their first name, if you bump into your boss’s boss at the bar, it’s “Mr. [lastname]” no matter what the setting. Again, this varies widely in the civilian world. Where I work, nobody stands when someone at or near the top of the organization enters the room. (In addition to the occasional ‘town hall’ meetings called by the director (a Presidential appointee), I was in a couple of working meetings with our org’s previous director. Nobody stood when he came in.) Everybody’s on a first-name basis with their division chiefs, who are three levels above the _hoi polloi_ and two levels below the director. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-etiquette-in-the-presence-of-military-officers/748975/43 "2016-03-20T13:16:18Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > No there are times to salute when out of uniform. When entering a closed post the MPs always salute if one has an officer sticker on the car. I always returned their salute. It wasn’t required but not inappropriate. My wife would just sort of wave. Correct. The gate guard always salutes me, even when I am in civilian clothes, and I always return the salute. It is part of the SOP for that particular duty. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-etiquette-in-the-presence-of-military-officers/748975/44 "2016-03-20T13:23:51Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > But still, the proper response to formality in an informal workplace is “Oh, just call me Bob”, not taking it as an insult. It’s not an insult, and anyone who thinks it is unqualified for any level of management. No one said anything about taking it as an insult. It’s an indication that the person either doesn’t know the corporate culture or is clueless, since it’s very clear that first names are standard. I’m sure you’d be gently (or not so gently) corrected on first usage but after that you’d be considered a bit odd. It’s like engineers who wear suits to the office in an attempt to garner respect and prestige. They’re generally treated with amusement or derision. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-etiquette-in-the-presence-of-military-officers/748975/45 "2016-03-20T13:52:40Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > They are supposed to be polite, but I’ve never heard of soldiers out-and-about in civvies being expected to salute and stand at attention if a hierarchical superior who happens to be in uniform gets on the same bus. I was in the military in the mid 90s, before 911, but when security was already tightening up to the point that we were not supposed to wear uniforms off-duty, except on the post. My husband was in the military post-911, and wearing a uniform off post and off duty was verboten. Saluting someone when either of you was out of uniform was a type of “sniper check.” So was saluting an officer\* in\* uniform, but wearing subdued rank. > [@Slash1972](#): > > True, but there isn’t any saluting while out of uniform anyway. And there is a difference from standing up and “standing at attention” If I had been in that class, I probably would have stood with everyone else, although not at attention, because there was a time in history when students stood when their instructor entered the room. It’s very old-fashioned, but it has enough of an historical precedence that I wouldn’t be mocking him, just being extra polite. And I get uncomfortable when everyone else is standing and I am sitting. > [@Doug\_K](#): > > Being fine with being on a first name basis is one thing, but to “take it poorly if you used ‘Mr’”? That’s a sign of someone who has no business being a boss. Only an idiot would see common courtesy as an insult. You should always start out calling superiors as “Mr./Mrs./Ms./Miss” unless you are introduced to them by their first name when you start, or unless they invite you to call them by their first name. President Obama can ask the cleaning staff at the White House to call him “Barry,” if that’s what he wants, but they should not make that presumption. When I was in my unit in the guard, the First Sergeant’s nephew was a PFC in the unit. When we were on duty, the nephew called his uncle “First Sergeant,” just like everyone else, but off duty (or at the Christmas party, when lots of their other civilian family was around) he called him “Uncle Tim.” Lots of people in the unit knew one another outside the unit, and were on first name bases off duty, but on duty, it was “Sergeant,” “Private,” etc. Or sometimes just calling people by their last names. It was a very good unit, not strict, just very professional. Lots of people in it had been in Desert Storm, so it was nothing new. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-etiquette-in-the-presence-of-military-officers/748975/46 "2016-03-20T14:06:00Z")
I wouldn’t stand at attention because it’s not a requirement of my non armed forces job/life. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t respect him. A rank entails a certain amount of respect, be it armed forces, academia, or industry. Not politicians though, of course. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-etiquette-in-the-presence-of-military-officers/748975/47 "2016-03-20T14:35:40Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > Being fine with being on a first name basis is one thing, but to “take it poorly if you used ‘Mr’”? That’s a sign of someone who has no business being a boss. Only an idiot would see common courtesy as an insult. How about the common courtesy of standing when a lady enters the room? And at work, do you help your lady co-workers by pushing in their chairs when they sit down at the conference table? How do your lady co-workers take to these courtesies, or referring to them as “ladies” in general? There’s plenty of “common courtesies” that are in various stages of becoming archaic. The one of referring to bosses as “Mr. So-and-So” is somewhere in the middle. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-etiquette-in-the-presence-of-military-officers/748975/48 "2016-03-20T15:05:45Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No one said anything about taking it as an insult. Well, not you, but someone did say something about taking it as an insult: > [@Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](#): > > Yeah…this. At my company, **it would be insulting to the C-levels if we started calling them Mr/Ms/Mrs** \_\_\_\_. It’s against our corporate culture. (Emphasis Added) Of course, “feeling insulted” itself has different definitions depending on culture. Would addressing the seniors at **DitnA** ’s workplace formally be really “insulting” as opposed to merely old-fashioned or awkward? I have to imagine that was a bit of poetic license and that the feeling is more like the latter and not really the former. Me, I’ve had the experience (within fields and across different ones) of casual workplace culture, and formal, and formal only on special ocassions, and “formal if anyone else is listening” or even just _if some specific someone/s_ is/are listening. The latter ones in particular are a PITA to sustain. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-etiquette-in-the-presence-of-military-officers/748975/49 "2016-03-20T15:40:07Z")
> [@TwoCarrotSnowman](#): > > As a civilian, I like to think I’d treat any military officers i happened to come across with courtesy and respect. Not because they are military officers, but because they are people. 🙂 Kind of how I feel, too. I’m no big fan of the military, but as I see it, a military officer – especially a high-ranking one – has earned that position, and is rightfully accustomed to respectful protocols from his subordinates. As a civilian, I don’t _ **have to** _ do a damn thing, but being respectful when you don’t have to be is pretty much the definition of common courtesy, especially to someone who has achieved some level of stature. ---
**Author:** ![JerrySTL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e274bd/32.png) [@JerrySTL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerrySTL)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-etiquette-in-the-presence-of-military-officers/748975/50 "2016-03-20T18:29:06Z")
I was in the US Air Force for 24 years as an NCO. Now I work for the USAF as a civilian (AKA Double Dipper) contractor. Of course as an NCO, I gave officers due respect in accordance with their rank such as saluting (while in uniform). Now as a retire military member, I’ll stand when a senior officer, Colonel and above, comes into the room if there are also military people there coming to attention. We also do this for senior ranking civilians such as if the Secretary of Defense would enter a room. While in my active duty days I would never call an officer by their first name, I am completely at ease calling retired officers by their first name. I have a few, include a general, who are good friends of mine. One exception to the above: during the last Veterans Day I put on a uniform for only the second time in nearly 20 years for a ceremony at one of my grandson’s schools. Walking across the parking lot I came across a retired officer and gave him a proper salute and he properly returned it. Then we both had a good laugh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-etiquette-in-the-presence-of-military-officers/748975.md?page=2)