# Civilian gun ownership prevents government tyranny. Really?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741 "2016-06-19T00:47:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/21 "2016-06-19T04:32:00Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > This is not a good comparison. The “civilians” in Iraq and Afghanistan posed a non-trivial threat, but the death toll was absolutely one-sided, to the point where, had the army and the USA in general had the actual interest in upholding the war permanently, they probably could have. But a US ground war against the US army? Assuming that the US Army didn’t defect _en masse_, there’s just no way in hell the civilians could win. Even in far-away Afghanistan, where the natives have every possible advantage, the US Army is, fundamentally, “kicking their asses” - just not in any way that would make the war justified for us. In a sort of civil war insurgency type situation, the point isn’t really a military win. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/22 "2016-06-19T04:38:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t really put a lot of stock in the notion that the second amendment is our bulwark against tyranny but that’s mostly because I am fairly sure that the sort of tyranny that would provoke widespread armed revolt in a democracy. > > With that said. If tyranny did come, I think we could do a hell of a lot of damage on a tyrannical government with small arms. Unlike Iraq or Afghanistan, the military could not indiscriminately kill people while the rebels could snipe at anyone in a uniform. A lotta damage one could do with a .22 LR, if you can shoot. Just sayin. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/23 "2016-06-19T06:42:30Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > I find it illogical that civilians could defend themselves against a tyrannical government. Yes, I know this “flies in the face” of the folks who think that the second amendment was put into the Constitution for that very reason. > > Perhaps the best example of United States civilians defying tyranny would be the [Battle of Blair Mountain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain) in 1921. > The fighting erupted because the miners were attempting to unionize, to which the law and the mine owners replied with law enforcement officers and strikebreakers. > The fighting escalated on both sides until, by Presidential order, the US Army was sent in. > > Basically, for any civilian disruption, I think the government can _always_ reply with a force that is unquestionably stronger than any group of unruly citizens. > So, does anyone know of any greater struggle between citizens and the US government especially where the citizens prevailed? Ask Assad. Everyone makes the silly assumption that each member of each branch is 100% loyal to the tyrannical government. In that situation an armed citizenry is another hedge against tyranny. A critical mass matters of course. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/24 "2016-06-19T07:50:14Z")
If there were ever an event that got lots (thinking thousands or tens of thousands) of our countrymen to the point where they were ready to point guns at agents of the government and pull the trigger, I’d wager that a good number of those trigger-pullers would be members of the military. As others have said, the military isn’t monolithic. If there were a significant divide among the population, to the point of armed confrontation, it would likely also show up within the military. I see an attitude among liberals in these sort of conversations, a sort of sneering “you can’t fight an F-16 with your rifle”, that I find humorous. The military votes overwhelmingly Republican. If there’s a fight between conservatives and liberals, what in the world makes the liberals think the military would be on their side or do their bidding? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/25 "2016-06-19T14:22:28Z")
I’m personally always confused that there seems to be an underlying assumption that in the case of a bad, evil, dangerous government rising to power, the noble and honest citizenry would be banding together to thwart it. An armed citizenry is an armed citizenry, and some of the worst governments in history have had popular support. In a situation where enough of the government, armed forces, and logistical support persons for the same have been swayed by the lure of some evil politics, why not the average citizen, too? There’s no guarantee at all which side they’ll be on. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/26 "2016-06-19T15:30:03Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m personally always confused that there seems to be an underlying assumption that in the case of a bad, evil, dangerous government rising to power, the noble and honest citizenry would be banding together to thwart it. > > An armed citizenry is an armed citizenry, and some of the worst governments in history have had popular support. In a situation where enough of the government, armed forces, and logistical support persons for the same have been swayed by the lure of some evil politics, why not the average citizen, too? There’s no guarantee at all which side they’ll be on. Right. Just as it seems to be assumed that the regular forces will blindly obey orders regardless of morality or legality. There is nothing to guarantee that a large part of the armed citizenry will not happily join as enforcer paramilitaries _on the side of the regime_, if the regime is clever enough to send the message “back us up and not only will you keep your guns we’ll give you even more”. The history shows that a lot of people tend to go along with whoever’s the “legitimate” authority just out of conditioning that this is what you do, and that rebels must be put down because that’s what you do. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/27 "2016-06-19T15:33:40Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > We did it against the British to become the US so it is not unprecedented. > > That said I doubt it is very likely today. If a population rises against a modern state they need the support of the military. > > The skew between what armies had in the 1700’s and the population are FAR less than the skew we have today. > > So if Texas wants to secede from the union they had better find a peaceful way to do so. Even if every last one of them was armed and opposed to the US they wouldn’t stand a chance against the US military. The South was armed against the Union. How did that turn out? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/28 "2016-06-19T15:34:18Z")
What happened in Oregon? A few people who did more than just post brave-sounding stuff on the Internet went there to help fight the tyranny, but most of us just laughed and sent them bags of dicks. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/29 "2016-06-19T15:42:40Z")
The whole problem with this "rising up against tyrrany’ stuff is that you’ve got to get all the different groups to agree that your definition of “tyranny” matches their various definitions of “tyranny”, then _if_ that miracle is accomplished, you have the herculian task of getting all these paranoid groups to trust each other enough to work together to defeat a common enemy without throwing each other under various buses in various power grabs, and finally they have to agree on an end result…and, sorry-they can’t _all_ be in charge when it’s all over. Comparing the various loud-mouth militias that now exist in this country to Afghan Freedom Fighters is an insult to Afghanis, freedom and fighting. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/30 "2016-06-19T16:44:15Z")
^^QFT. The “tyranny” most of these nutballs seem to be protesting against is: a. Obama is black. b. Not everybody is as closeted as they are. c. Slavery is illegal. d. Their great, great, great granddaddy’s side in the question of “c” got curb-stomped. e. There are too many of “them” and not enough of “us.” or some combination of the above. If it ever **does** get to a “fight against tyranny,” it will be a 20-sided cluster-fuck that will make the Balkans look like a kindergarten spat. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/31 "2016-06-19T16:49:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What happened in Oregon? A few people who did more than just post brave-sounding stuff on the Internet went there to help fight the tyranny, but most of us just laughed and sent them bags of dicks. You’re absolutely right. 5 people weren’t able to overthrow the USA therefore no revolt against tyranny could ever succeed. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/32 "2016-06-19T17:28:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You’re absolutely right. 5 people weren’t able to overthrow the USA therefore no revolt against tyranny could ever succeed. But the people who took over Malheur, and the many more who support them, post encouraging messages about them, organize protests, litter FaceBook, etc., genuinely EXPECTED mass support and a mass uprising of the American people. It’s like Operation American Spring in 2014; Col. Riley and his cohorts genuinely expected ten million or more patriots to flood DC and overthrow Obama. They got, what, a hundred at their protest? The _sort of sneering “you can’t fight an F-16 with your rifle”_ to which **HurricaneDitka** alluded has nothing to do with conservative-vs-liberal. Rather, it reflects the idea that if the military has escaped from civilian control, the war is already over and lost. Meanwhile, if the military is still under the control of the rest of the government, the rest of the government will reflect the politics of the majority of the population, and the ones fighting armed only with a rifle are going to be isolated on the fringe. The “tyranny” the Malheur and OAS crowd see and plan to fight is governmental action approved by a majority of the populace, and with majority support the F-16s will have no problems. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/33 "2016-06-19T18:22:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You’re absolutely right. 5 people weren’t able to overthrow the USA therefore no revolt against tyranny could ever succeed. Already covered in my post #29. “Tyranny” is just a word that means different things to different people at different times, and short of massive mind control a vague “Revolt Against Tyranny!” is going to be nothing but a tragic joke. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/34 "2016-06-19T19:12:15Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > But they didn’t. So what makes you think the US government would have _more_ interest in waging a permanent war against the American people, on American streets? Well, for starters, it’s their home turf, so they’ve got much more stake in it. Does anyone actually really care if the Taliban takes over Afghanistan? That may sound callous (indeed, it _is_ pretty callous), but in all honesty, regime change over there has a fairly minimal effect on our lives over here. But would we care if the government was put under siege _here_? I think a whole lot of people would care a whole awful lot. A whole lot more than in Afghanistan or Vietnam. Also, to anyone saying the army would defect… Congratulations, you’ve completely defeated the point of your argument. If the army would defect… Well, there’s your guns. It doesn’t matter if JimBob McBumfuck doesn’t have the right to own a Baretta .50 cal, if his cousin BobJim in the army defects and takes the entire McBumFuck division with him, they’re going to be quite well-armed. Given that that’s literally the only way such an uprising could ever happen… Why do we need the 2nd, again? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/35 "2016-06-19T19:35:58Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > As has been said already get the military on your side or kiss your ass goodbye. Civilians have no chance against a modern military. . That’s true, which is why the USA won in Vietnam, the Soviets won in Afghanistan, the British and Protestants in North Ireland and we have crushed the Taliban and ISIL so easily.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/36 "2016-06-19T21:56:48Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > A lotta damage one could do with a .22 LR, if you can shoot. Just sayin. a 22 lr has MAYBE an effective range of 100 yards. A .308 might have ten times that range. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/37 "2016-06-19T21:57:48Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > What never seems to occur to the ‘more guns equal more freedom’ crowd is it _aids_ cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control…you know, tyranny. With all the guns we have in this country, in what way are we subject to cruel, unreasonable and arbitrary use of power? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/38 "2016-06-19T22:15:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > With all the guns we have in this country, in what way are we subject to cruel, unreasonable and arbitrary use of power? I’d say the NRA’s stranglehold on Congress qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/39 "2016-06-19T22:16:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s true, which is why the USA won in Vietnam, the Soviets won in Afghanistan, the British and Protestants in North Ireland and we have crushed the Taliban and ISIL so easily.:rolleyes: But those are foreign invasions, not tyranny as a lot of gun rights activists imagine it. Now to be sure, foreign invasion by Britain was definitely on the minds of the Founding Fathers and was probably on the minds of those who inserted the 2nd Amendment into the Constitution. But there’s not much chance of that happening today. If republicans are paranoid about ‘communist, fascist, dictator Obama and gun-banning libruls’ taking over the country, a better analogy might be Assad in Syria or a state in which militias or factions are fighting over control of the government. Our own civil war in the 1800s might be a fitting example as well. If the military is divided over which faction to support, then armed factions could fight each other indefinitely. But once the superior military establishes command and control, an armed public will be starved into submission, disarmed, and brutally vanquished. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/40 "2016-06-20T00:10:44Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > It’s like Operation American Spring in 2014; Col. Riley and his cohorts genuinely expected ten million or more patriots to flood DC and overthrow Obama. They got, what, a hundred at their protest? Let’s be fair: if they genuinely expected millions of insurgents\* that \*was just utterly delusional detachment from reality. > [@asahi](#): > > Our own civil war in the 1800s might be a fitting example as well. > > If the military is divided over which faction to support, then armed factions could fight each other indefinitely. So that at the start of the War of Seccession members of the small professional army split up between the sides, the state-based regiments stuck with whatever side their state took, and a prolonged bloody grind ensued among initially well-matched forces. The Confederacy fought and lost using an army and \*organized \*militia, not a “people’s insurgency”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741.md?page=3)