# Civilian gun ownership prevents government tyranny. Really?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741 "2016-06-19T00:47:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/61 "2016-06-20T17:09:18Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Pashto /= Americans. If the 'Merkin “Defending-the Constitution” bunch misses a meal or three, or has to actually put their ass on the line for a cause, you will hear a resounding echo where they once were. The Pashto have been guerilla fighters against outsiders for eons. Americans are pussies compared to them. Maybe so, but the Americans during the Revolutionary war were a tough bunch of motherfuckers and i can assure you we can become tough again. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/62 "2016-06-20T17:10:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Maybe so, but the Americans during the Revolutionary war were a tough bunch of motherfuckers and i can assure you we can become tough again. …the next time we fight for independence from Britain? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/63 "2016-06-20T17:28:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Maybe so, but the Americans during the Revolutionary war were a tough bunch of motherfuckers and i can assure you we can become tough again. I assure you the modern American “Freedom Fighter” will quit in droves if asked to do anything more then dress like Rambo, waste ammo shooting at stationary targets, and make ignorant and racist YouTube videos. Remember how the Bundys fought “tyranny” in the Oregon siege? _There’s_ your American Freedom Fighter, and the cause he fights for. What a joke. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/64 "2016-06-20T17:31:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Maybe so, but the Americans during the Revolutionary war were a tough bunch of motherfuckers and i can assure you we can become tough again. Bullshit. As long as 'Merkins have X-Boxes, Happy Meals and Football, you’ll never see a revolution. Keep in mind that during the American Revolution, 1/3 of the population sided with the British and another 1/3 decided to sit the whole thing out. The Minutemen didn’t win the Revolution - von Steuben and the French did. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/65 "2016-06-20T17:45:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > To see how silly that analogy is… You’re quite right: it’s not silly at all. The Afghans chased the British out. Then they chased the Russians out. And then they chased the Americans and British out. Not silly at all. As for America, it’s not about the situation now, but what the situation might be and to prevent that situation from coming to pass. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/66 "2016-06-20T17:55:13Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > You’re quite right: it’s not silly at all. The Afghans chased the British out. Then they chased the Russians out. And then they chased the Americans and British out. > > Not silly at all. > > As for America, it’s not about the situation now, but what the situation might be and to prevent that situation from coming to pass. And if the Afghans were fat, happy, stupid, unorganized and lived what the rest of the world might consider a sheltered and fucking easy life, I dare say their freedom-fighting history might have turned out a bit different. Why won’t you say what you think the supposed “tyranny” would have to be to cause this Great Uprising, if we aren’t there now? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/67 "2016-06-20T18:03:42Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > Whenever people say that citizens having guns is how we became a country, they are forgetting how several thousand soldiers and the entire navy fighting against Britain were from France. Oh, Spain was helping out too. Nonsense! Just like the job creators, America puled itself up by it’s own bootstraps, without help or aid or infrastructure or anything to help! ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/68 "2016-06-20T18:06:13Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > _Adding_ weapons only increases the ability an frequency of these events. I actually doubt this; I think we’re topped out. All the people who commit armed robbery, live as gang members and drug dealers, and plan massacres ,\*\* already\*\* have all the guns they want. The only people _left_ to still acquire guns are the people who live lawful middle-class lives. > [@](#): > > In the area of subjecting other people to ones own will, firearms have the monopoly. No argument there, only you propose attempting (and I have severe doubts it could work) disarmament, while gun owners propose making sure there\* isn’t\* a monopoly. As for an armed populace preventing tyranny: I think of it more in terms of the principle of the thing: we aren’t the kind of society that _takes for granted_ that only agents of the government should have weapons and that it’s the peoples’ duty to mutely submit to authority. That’s the mindset that gun owners fear would lay the foundation for an eventual tyranny, which might not be an abject dictatorship but more of a quasi-socialist order where “for the peoples’ own good” the government suppresses all dissent, like what we see in China today. And if you’re certain that our civil government will always remain the selfless guardian of the peoples’ freedom, then I would point out that the citizens of the Roman Republic probably thought the same. Or to put it this way: the populace has a natural self-interest in its own freedom; nobody else does- not the bureaucrats, not the career politicians, certainly not the Army and the police. Abolishing freedom would make their lives easier. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/69 "2016-06-20T18:10:02Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Bullshit. As long as 'Merkins have X-Boxes, Happy Meals and Football, you’ll never see a revolution. I’ve been saying for years “As long as Americans have indoor plumbing, VCRs\* and McDonald’s, there will be no revolution”. You can tell from the “VCRs” comment that I have indeed been saying this for a long time. So thank you for also coming to the same conclusion and for updating my 1989 phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/70 "2016-06-20T18:17:14Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Seems to me that those nations that have overthrown tyrannical governments and became better places in the last century have all done so without drawing a weapon: South Africa, India, East Germany, Poland all come to mind. South Africa: the white minority didn’t dare commit genocide against the black majority for fear of foreign intervention. India: a bankrupt, tottering British Empire simply didn’t have the ability to force India to remain a colonial possession anymore. East Germany, Poland: Both had puppet governments propped up by the USSR and which vanished as soon as the USSR, for reasons of its own, decided not to keep them in power anymore. This doesn’t impress me as good examples of the irrelevance of armed force. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/71 "2016-06-20T18:29:10Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Bullshit. As long as 'Merkins have X-Boxes, Happy Meals and Football, you’ll never see a revolution. > > Keep in mind that during the American Revolution, 1/3 of the population sided with the British and another 1/3 decided to sit the whole thing out. The Minutemen didn’t win the Revolution - von Steuben and the French did. Yeah, I don’t think so. The soft America is left America. The military is mostly Republican. How do you think law enforcement votes in the aggregate. The armed portion of the nation tend towards the right. If we ever had a tyrannical government do you think that they’d be able to control 100% of the military? No. Guns are only one hedge. You guys just don’t get that. Other hedges are non-government institutions such as churches, mosques, private schools, private militias etc. The most powerful tool though is freedom of the press. Another thing state power nuts don’t understand is that by the government not pushing hard on certain subjects the government is not perceived as being tyrannical. Therefore, aside from a few loons such as the Bundy’s, people are content. And there are very few 2nd amendment advocates who desire a nation that can’t enforce the law against a group of 30 nuts. So please leave that strawman alone. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/72 "2016-06-20T18:31:22Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > :dubious: Says you. How about we let one of them pop in and tell us themselves? I see their violence on tv. Political violence is typically a leftwing tactic and it’s on full display whenever Trump gives a speech. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/73 "2016-06-20T18:34:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > How’d Assad be if Russia didn’t intervene? Assad would still look like a teleporter accident containing parts of David Arquette and a goat, but he might have been over thrown. “… much like the “Brindle-fly”, the “Arquoat” seems sociopathic and unstable… almost to the genetic level… note the odd twitching…” ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/74 "2016-06-20T18:42:55Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > This doesn’t impress me as good examples of the irrelevance of armed force. But that’s what we’ve been pointing out: **There is no “armed force” in this country other than the military.** A passle of rednecks with their fetish-objects isn’t a “armed force” by _any_ definition of the word. It’s an ignorant mob that is much more likely to shoot each other than they are to stand and fight an organized force of Cub Scouts, much less the 1st Armored Division. Also, and once again, the nutjobs and their ilk have a funny definition of “tyranny.” It’s pretty much equal to “laws I personally don’t like.” If the majority of voters in this country vote for something, it’s hardly “tyranny.” When the government _takes away_ your right to vote and publish, then you have the right to bitch and arm. Oh, wait. Isn’t that what the Republicans have been doing to minorities for the last few years? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/75 "2016-06-20T18:43:27Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Dude, do you believe power exists only in some abstract form of government? That only government sanctioned agents can subject others to their will? Cause news flash homey, any fucking clown with a gun in a liquor store can do that. _Adding_ weapons only increases the ability an frequency of these events. > > In the area of subjecting other people to ones own will, firearms have the monopoly. > > You may think you are a righteous man, **Damuri** , and we may have good times over a few beers. But if our government begins to fall for whatever reason I don’t know you from Adam and your possession of firearms gives me no comfort whatsoever. Hey homey, Using a gun to rob a liquor store is usually referred to as a crime not “cruel, unreasonable and arbitrary use of power” I wouldn’t worry too much about he collapse of the federal government if I were you. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/76 "2016-06-20T18:46:14Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > But that’s what we’ve been pointing out: **There is no “armed force” in this country other than the military.** A passle of rednecks with their fetish-objects isn’t a “armed force” by _any_ definition of the word. It’s an ignorant mob that is much more likely to shoot each other than they are to stand and fight an organized force of Cub Scouts, much less the 1st Armored Division. > > Also, and once again, the nutjobs and their ilk have a funny definition of “tyranny.” It’s pretty much equal to “laws I personally don’t like.” If the majority of voters in this country vote for something, it’s hardly “tyranny.” When the government _takes away_ your right to vote and publish, then you have the right to bitch and arm. > > Oh, wait. Isn’t that what the Republicans have been doing to minorities for the last few years? If armed groups of men can’t even defeat Cub Scouts before succumbing to friendly fire, why are you so worried? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/77 "2016-06-20T18:47:51Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I’d say the NRA’s stranglehold on Congress qualifies. Its like religion’s strangehold on congress with respect to religious freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/78 "2016-06-20T18:51:48Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > South Africa: the white minority didn’t dare commit genocide against the black majority for fear of foreign intervention. > India: a bankrupt, tottering British Empire simply didn’t have the ability to force India to remain a colonial possession anymore. > East Germany, Poland: Both had puppet governments propped up by the USSR and which vanished as soon as the USSR, for reasons of its own, decided not to keep them in power anymore. > > This doesn’t impress me as good examples of the irrelevance of armed force. Can you cite an example of an armed populace successfully overthrowing their government which resulted in a successful state? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/79 "2016-06-20T18:53:10Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > But those are foreign invasions, not tyranny as a lot of gun rights activists imagine it. Now to be sure, foreign invasion by Britain was definitely on the minds of the Founding Fathers and was probably on the minds of those who inserted the 2nd Amendment into the Constitution. But there’s not much chance of that happening today. > > If republicans are paranoid about ‘communist, fascist, dictator Obama and gun-banning libruls’ taking over the country, a better analogy might be Assad in Syria or a state in which militias or factions are fighting over control of the government. Our own civil war in the 1800s might be a fitting example as well. > > If the military is divided over which faction to support, then armed factions could fight each other indefinitely. But once the superior military establishes command and control, an armed public will be starved into submission, disarmed, and brutally vanquished. No. No they won’t. Unless they populate the military with clones from Kamino, they will be starving and brutally vanquishing the friends and family of other members of the military. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/80 "2016-06-20T18:56:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If armed groups of men can’t even defeat Cub Scouts before succumbing to friendly fire, why are you so worried? Because they insist on killing our children in the meantime, for one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741.md?page=5)