# Civilian gun ownership prevents government tyranny. Really?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741 "2016-06-19T00:47:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/81 "2016-06-20T19:00:30Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Most of this quoted post is great, but the bolded parts are pure fantasy, IMO. It hasn’t been “both sides” fucking things up _on purpose_ and there is no extreme left in America today that compares to the extreme right. Of COURSE there is an extreme left. Noone listens to them or takes them seriously but they’re there ready to ban the burning of hydrocarbons, ban the consumption of meat, etc. The right on the other hand have gotten to the point where they have they have to pander to their extreme right to win elections. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/82 "2016-06-20T19:05:15Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > [ol] > [li]Cut a hole in a box[/li][li]Put your guns in that box[/li][/ol] > > It’s a gun in a box, baby What’s the hole for?:dubious: What are your intentions with that box?😕 You’re sick.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/83 "2016-06-20T19:06:26Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Yes. With a user name like **Czarcasm** it was easy for you to understand my post’s intended insinuation. > > However, in defense of the gun nuts, several have made it quite clear that they believe gun rights derive _not_ from Man’s Law but from a much Higher Authority. The supreme court can be counted among those gun nuts. They believe that the right to bear arms is a natural right that springs from the right to self defense and the second amendment is just a codification of that natural right. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/84 "2016-06-20T19:07:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why won’t you say what you think the supposed “tyranny” would have to be to cause this Great Uprising, if we aren’t there now? Because I’m not going to fall for that trick. If Afghanistan won’t convince you, how about Insonesia? Or Vietnam? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/85 "2016-06-20T19:10:27Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Look at Afghanistan and Iraq for what “civilians” can do against the U.S. military. Answer: Not oust it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/86 "2016-06-20T19:10:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I see their violence on tv. Political violence is typically a leftwing tactic and it’s on full display whenever Trump gives a speech. Are you still blathering on about your perceptions of other, fictional people’s thoughts and motivations? Let me know when a real “Bernie bro” (whatever that is) shows up and posts here; until then your posts on this subject are like farts in an elevator. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/87 "2016-06-20T19:11:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And if the Afghans were fat, happy, stupid, unorganized and lived what the rest of the world might consider a sheltered and fucking easy life, I dare say their freedom-fighting history might have turned out a bit different. > Why won’t you say what you think the supposed “tyranny” would have to be to cause this Great Uprising, if we aren’t there now? The most likely scenario is an alien invasion. Next is a black man being elected president, which is the Webster dictionary’s definition of tyranny. The number of gun nuts claiming “defense of tyranny” rationale for guns skyrocketed on the night Obama won the election. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/88 "2016-06-20T19:12:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Of COURSE there is an extreme left. Noone listens to them or takes them seriously but they’re there ready to ban the burning of hydrocarbons, ban the consumption of meat, etc. The right on the other hand have gotten to the point where they have they have to pander to their extreme right to win elections. Your first sentence addresses a strawman. The rest of the post isn’t deserving of a reply. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/89 "2016-06-20T19:15:22Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Because I’m not going to fall for that trick. If Afghanistan won’t convince you, how about Insonesia? Or Vietnam? Convince me of what? That you will never run out of total unequal scenarios to compare America with? That you couldn’t identify real tyranny worth fighting against if came in a gift box marked “This Month’s Selection from the _Tyranny Of The Month Club_” hand delivered by Tyranny Claus himself? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/90 "2016-06-20T19:16:07Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Can you cite an example of an armed populace successfully overthrowing their government which resulted in a successful state? France? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/91 "2016-06-20T19:17:26Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Because they insist on killing our children in the meantime, for one. They insist on it? Those bastards. Do you have a cite? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/92 "2016-06-20T19:19:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Your first sentence addresses a strawman. The rest of the post isn’t deserving of a reply. You either don’t understand what strawman means or you don’t understand what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/93 "2016-06-20T19:36:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > They insist on it? Those bastards. Do you have a cite? Read any of the blather the NRA has come out with in the last 50 years. Or the newspaper in any city in the country, and count the number of children killed each year by the actions (or inactions) of “Good Guys with Guns.” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/94 "2016-06-20T19:42:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yeah, I don’t think so. The soft America is left America. The military is mostly Republican. How do you think law enforcement votes in the aggregate. The armed portion of the nation tend towards the right. If we ever had a tyrannical government do you think that they’d be able to control 100% of the military? Yes, and given the political beliefs of that particular demographic, I wonder what sort of “tyranny” they believe they need protection against. The notion of a well-armed population acting as a hedge against tyranny is largely absurd Conservative fantasy, not born out by historical facts. The government of the US is not some occupying force. Not is it likely to be “stolen” by some fringe group. It is a democratically elected government “of, by and for the people”. What that means is that if our government becomes tyrannical, it will be because a large portion of the population have sanctioned it. For example, say a large group of angry, poorly educated, economically disadvantaged people elect an ignorant, narcissistic, racist tyrant who promises to fix all their problems by “stopping” various groups “known” to be troublemakers. In this particular scenario, guns will not help the oppressed groups, not because hunting rifles are no match against militarized police, Orwellian surveillance, mechanized infantry with air support and the rest of the government’s apparatus of control. It won’t help because those oppressed groups will be a small minority considered to be “agitators”, “immigrants”, “terrorists”, “criminals” and whatnot by the general population. Hitler and Stalin and every other dictator is able to rule their country because the people allow it. In fact, one could argue that unrestricted access to firearms makes a people less free. The government, police and military have at least some sort of legal oversight. Armed gangs and militias do not. Functionally, what is the difference between a group of armed “patriots” in Nevada deciding they don’t want to follow Federal land use laws and a group of armed white supremacists or Latin Kings gang members deciding that laws on private property and not murdering people don’t apply to them? The concept of unregulated militia protecting people’s rights quickly deteriorates into the right of the strong to dominate the weak. And most likely what you will end up with is a failed state dominated by warlords, criminals and narco-terrorist gangs. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/95 "2016-06-20T19:50:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > France? Where does the[Reign of Terror](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror)fall in this narrative? ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/96 "2016-06-20T20:05:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’ve been saying for years “As long as Americans have indoor plumbing, VCRs\* and McDonald’s, there will be no revolution”. > > You can tell from the “VCRs” comment that I have indeed been saying this for a long time. My saying has been “As long as the trucks keep bringing food, cheap goods, and gas, citizens will be happy.” Let them stop a few days and our first-world society gets unstable very quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/97 "2016-06-20T20:24:13Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Read any of the blather the NRA has come out with in the last 50 years. Or the newspaper in any city in the country, and count the number of children killed each year by the actions (or inactions) of “Good Guys with Guns.” Can you point me to one where they insist on killing children? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/98 "2016-06-20T20:27:12Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Where does the[Reign of Terror](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror)fall in this narrative? Somewhere in between armed revolution and successful state. The reign of terror lasted about a year. That’s pretty good by today’s standards, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/99 "2016-06-20T20:29:07Z")
Rabid opposition to even the most fundamental safety measures equals responsibility for the deaths that result because of that opposition. If they insist on zero safety measures, they are insisting of the deaths of people that could easily and non-intrusively have been prevented. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/100 "2016-06-20T21:23:09Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’ve been saying for years “As long as Americans have indoor plumbing, VCRs\* and McDonald’s, there will be no revolution”. > > You can tell from the “VCRs” comment that I have indeed been saying this for a long time. > > So thank you for also coming to the same conclusion and for updating my 1989 phrase. Dude. _Panem et circenses_. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741.md?page=6)