# Civilian gun ownership prevents government tyranny. Really?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741 "2016-06-19T00:47:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/101 "2016-06-20T21:24:52Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Rabid opposition to even the most fundamental safety measures equals responsibility for the deaths that result because of that opposition. If they insist on zero safety measures, they are insisting of the deaths of people that could easily and non-intrusively have been prevented. I’m in for the evidence that there are some ‘easy’ and ‘non-intrusive’ “safety measures” that could prevent all / most / many deaths. Which recent Congressional bill would have had a substantial impact on the number of dead children? How many lives do you estimate H.R. ??? would have saved (and how did you arrive at that estimate?)? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/102 "2016-06-20T21:37:47Z")
Kind of hard to do an estimate on a bunch of bills that have no chance of passing, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/103 "2016-06-20T21:50:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Kind of hard to do an estimate on a bunch of bills that have no chance of passing, isn’t it? Or the terror list ban will go to the Supreme Court and be ruled a violation of due process. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/104 "2016-06-20T22:01:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Kind of hard to do an estimate on a bunch of bills that have no chance of passing, isn’t it? What does the likelihood of passage have to do with estimating their effect if they were to become law? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/105 "2016-06-20T22:02:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Somewhere in between armed revolution and successful state. The reign of terror lasted about a year. That’s pretty good by today’s standards, isn’t it? France went from absolute monarch Louis XVI to absolute monarch Napoleon I in fifteen years, with a reign of terror and assorted anarchy in between. Which part are you calling “successful state”? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/106 "2016-06-20T22:20:07Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > France went from absolute monarch Louis XVI to absolute monarch Napoleon I in fifteen years, with a reign of terror and assorted anarchy in between. Which part are you calling “successful state”? Napoleonic France wasn’t paradise, but it was a million years ahead of and better than the Ancien Régime (Arno Mayer notwithstanding) ---
**Author:** ![ziper1221](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a183cd/32.png) [@ziper1221](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ziper1221)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/107 "2016-06-20T22:22:45Z")
Why do people in this thread keep attacking fringe groups and using that as proof of the second amendment is flawed? All that is is proof that the government is not tyrannical. If voting rights were rescinded, minorities coming under serious prosecution, etc, there would be large, serious groups formed. > [@](#): > > Which part are you calling “successful state”? Please define successful state first. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/108 "2016-06-20T23:32:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You either don’t understand what strawman means or you don’t understand what I wrote. No, I understand what a strawman is just fine. If you think your reply wasn’t a strawman, I’d suggest that perhaps it’s you who doesn’t understand the concept. I also understood what you wrote, but your post did nothing to provide evidence that you understood mine. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/109 "2016-06-20T23:34:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Dude. _Panem et circenses_. 😉 Sure, if you prefer the classics… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/110 "2016-06-20T23:41:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Are you still blathering on about your perceptions of other, fictional people’s thoughts and motivations? Let me know when a real “Bernie bro” (whatever that is) shows up and posts here; until then your posts on this subject are like farts in an elevator. Don’t be silly. If you have access to one of the following: internet, tv, radio, or newspaper you can verify for yourself that left wing political violence is very real. ---
**Author:** ![ziper1221](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a183cd/32.png) [@ziper1221](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ziper1221)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/111 "2016-06-20T23:43:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Don’t be silly. If you have access to one of the following: internet, tv, radio, or newspaper you can verify for yourself that left wing political violence is very real. Please define political violence. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/112 "2016-06-21T01:27:17Z")
Anything done by people **octopus** doesn’t like. If it’s done by his side, it’s called “lawful protest,” or “Non-representative samples of the Right acting excessively.” Or what most people would call “lynching.” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/113 "2016-06-21T03:58:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Somewhere in between armed revolution and successful state. The reign of terror lasted about a year. That’s pretty good by today’s standards, isn’t it? Today’s standard for what? Genocide? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/114 "2016-06-21T04:05:16Z")
> [@ziper1221](#): > > Please define political violence. Violence for a political purpose. Such as the hooligans and thugs attacking Trump supporters. Or trying to shoot The Donald. [US election: Arrested Briton 'wanted to shoot Donald Trump' - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-36582770) Is the BBC an acceptable source? > [@silenus](#): > > Anything done by people **octopus** doesn’t like. If it’s done by his side, it’s called “lawful protest,” or “Non-representative samples of the Right acting excessively.” Or what most people would call “lynching.” Nice make believe. Quote me supporting any right wing political violence please. If you can’t, don’t misleading attribute statements to me. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/115 "2016-06-21T04:27:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Violence for a political purpose. Such as the hooligans and thugs attacking Trump supporters. Or trying to shoot The Donald. [US election: Arrested Briton 'wanted to shoot Donald Trump' - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-36582770) Is the BBC an acceptable source? Umm, ya, unarmed prep tries to take away a police officers gun in order to try assassinate The Donald. Either the perp is a couple beers short of a six pack, or it’s some kind of Kabuki Theater. A “real” assassination attempt, by definition, would not entail trying to take away a law officer’s firearm at a public event and then try to shoot the target. Dude probably doesn’t even know how to use a firearm, although I will admit that is conjecture on my part. He certainly isn’t a ex member of SAS pulling a total asymmetrical warfare move. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/116 "2016-06-21T04:44:18Z")
> [@ziper1221](#): > > Why do people in this thread keep attacking fringe groups and using that as proof of the second amendment is flawed? All that is is proof that the government is not tyrannical. If voting rights were rescinded, **minorities coming under serious prosecution** , etc, there would be large, serious groups formed. Given the response by the people with the guns to Donald Trump, I have to question the bolded. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/117 "2016-06-21T04:51:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Violence for a political purpose. Such as the hooligans and thugs attacking Trump supporters. Or trying to shoot The Donald. [US election: Arrested Briton 'wanted to shoot Donald Trump' - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-36582770) Is the BBC an acceptable source? Srsly? This is what you’ve brought to the table? 1. He’s not a Democrat; he’s not even an American citizen for fuck’s sake. 2. There’s nothing in your cite to indicate this was politically motivated in any way; again: the perp isn’t even an American citizen. 3. No one tried to shoot Mr. Trump. The guy who says he wanted to never even had a gun. 4. You are the best refutation of your own positions of anyone posting in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/118 "2016-06-21T05:00:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Srsly? This is what you’ve brought to the table? > > 1. He’s not a Democrat; he’s not even an American citizen for fuck’s sake. > 2. There’s nothing in your cite to indicate this was politically motivated in any way; again: the perp isn’t even an American citizen. > 3. No one tried to shoot Mr. Trump. The guy who says he wanted to never even had a gun. > 4. You are the best refutation of your own positions of anyone posting in this thread. You can read right? Where did I write he was a Dem? And where is it written you have to be an American citizen to be politically motivated? Politics is a uniquely American thing? And don’t pretend that if this was an attempt, however amateur, to attack Mrs. Clinton the left would be howling in outrage about the dangers of the right and the toxicity of talk radio and a trillion other things. Hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/119 "2016-06-21T11:10:27Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And don’t pretend that if this was an attempt, however amateur, to attack Mrs. Clinton the left would be howling in outrage about the dangers of the right and the toxicity of talk radio and a trillion other things. Hypocrites. _Real_ examples might have served you better, but imaginary situations only produce imaginary hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741/120 "2016-06-21T14:18:57Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Rabid opposition to even the most fundamental safety measures equals responsibility for the deaths that result because of that opposition. If they insist on zero safety measures, they are insisting of the deaths of people that could easily and non-intrusively have been prevented. What fundamental safety measures are you talking about? Which of those non-intrusive measures would have prevented the deaths you are talking about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/civilian-gun-ownership-prevents-government-tyranny-really/757741.md?page=7)